And sorry for not being around much this weekend. Life happens…
Norm Merton
Carp part of nefarious conspiracy to lift Zucc’s spirits. Had some good things to say about Hayes as well. Suspicious. Or to put it another way, observant.
Bdl
I’m a Hayes fan, and I happen to think he has more to give. But I am not blind to what others see with Hayes. I understand why he frustrates so many people.
St Pete Eli
ilb
Agree life happens. My wife and I with our 8 month old grandson almost the entire day yesterday!
I was saying that, I know by now that everybody has to have players they hate no matter what, but IMO Hayes has been quite good and quite productive for a while now. IMHO. I said it in the review, I think he can be a bigger scorer … if he wants to be.
Norm – It isn’t that most people are Zucc “haters”. It is that some people are at odds with a segment of the Rangers fandom that canonize St. Zucc. He is a great story and a nice player. He is also going to be 31 at the start of next season and will be an UFA at the end of next year. The team couldn;t afford to sign McDonagh and the team can’t afford to give St. Zucc the $6 million per year someone will. It is not personal, it is strictly business.
Spooner, Norm? If he stays in NY ( big if as it appears his numbers may substantiate a significant raise from $2,825M by arbitrator) he is going to play wing. You can argue all you want whether his game is more suited for wing or center ( I believe he’s better on the wing ), but with Zibanejad, Hayes, Namestnikov ( another if, but they are more likely to retain him than Spooner ), Andersson, Chytil, and potential addition of a true 4th line center, it’s just too crowded at center.
ilb2001
Carp, by the way, you forgot to duck yesterday when you said both Spooner and Namestnikov are better players than Miller. So, I’m ducking now.
By the way, my son was at the game yesterday too. Visiting his best friend in Florida. Tried to text him, no response yet. Something tells me he went to bed a tad late last night…Aw, the single life 🙂
Norm Merton
Spooner debate from previous thread, ilb.
Norm Merton
Anthony, I’m referring to the Zucc hate on this blog. Not my favorite player, but he’s overly abused here.
Bdl
More than one current center( I’m including Andersson and Chytil) is going to have to move to wing, or be traded.
Hockey Sittoo
Like it or not Zucc means a ton to this team in a lot of ways. Leadership on and off the ice, solid play in both ends, and, yes, a fan favorite. If a segment of the fan base can actually trash Lundqvist despite what he has meant to the team for more than a decade, it’s not much of a surprise that people will go after Zucc. I for one hope Zucc survives the summer and stays a Ranger. He is not and never will be the most important player on the team, but he is a vital cog and when he plays like last night is pretty damn impressive (for a Hobbit).
Pete
Hayes came up small during the stretch the last couple years, so until he does it when the games mean anything can’t say i’m fully buying he has turned a corner. Also think in perfect world he is a wing in the top 6 rather rather than a center (profiles more as a 3rd line center to me).
–Rangers will have to make some important decisions as soon as this offseason because we really shouldn’t be tying up 20m+/yr on Mika, Hayes , Names and Spooner longterm or even next year. Best course of action may be to move 2 of that group this offseason.
—
Sure hope Hank is on the bench on Tuesday night and we call up some guys from Hartford for the 4th line. Need to start dressing the best lineup for the draft lottery!!
DaveB
Don’t forget Brett Howden in the center mix. He’s prob ticketed for Hartford next season but should get a long look in camp AND be in consideration for a bottom-6 role the season after next. If he’s your natural size-and-strength center, then Hayes could definitely be shifted to the wing. His time at center can only help his overall game.
But we don’t want to be TOO effective next season. We need to Lose for Hughes, Lack for Jack.
Pete
way too many 2nd through 4th line centers!!!
Hockey Sittoo
Spooner has been crazy good. Wonder if it’s for real? I’d like to see Hank sit a bit too. Pretty important to determine if Georgi should be the back up next year (assuming he would get at least 25-30 games) and no need to risk Henrik’s health or sanity much more this season. With their upcoming schedule it sure looks like his 30 wins mark will go by the wayside anyway. C’est la vie.
DaveB
Hopefully Phil Heatle is a top line center Pete. Not holding my breath though.
Not that I think Corey Pronman is the authority on all things prospects (especially since he doesn’t see much in Hajek or Howden), but I posed the question to him about where Chytil would rank if he were slightly younger and available for this upcoming draft. He thought not in the top 5, but right there with the top centers available in the 10-15 range (who aren’t studs).
But again, hopefully he develops into something more than a good 2C. If not, we’re not getting a 1C this draft. And if we don’t Lose for Hughes next season…it seems like another elite-center-lite draft, albeit super early.
Pete
Don’t think Spooner is going to put up points at this kind of pace on a consistent basis going forward unless he truly has turned into a new player.
Pete
Yea I’m not too optimistic Chytil turns into a real #1 center. Not impossible, but lot of work to show he is that at the NHL level
James G
ILB, you talk about this team down the middle as if there’s a guarantee that all of these guys get offered new contracts. Do we really think that in the midst of a rebuild Gorton isn’t thinking there’s a need for an upgrade? He’s seen what having 2 or 3 Cs who are very good and ideal for second or third line duty gets you. I think we need to wait and see what we have come camp. And that includes where they find Spooner to be ideal. (they being this coach or the next)
On Spooner: He makes me curious. There’s more skill than I thought. Not sure the productivity is at this current pace next season but then again I penciled Grabner in for 10-15 goals last season and 15-20 this year.
On Hayes: Yes, He frustrates me with the way he’s notoriously held on to the puck for too long and not used his size to his advantage thus far in his young career.
I certainly don’t “hate” him. In fact I was one of his biggest supporters here in years 1 and 2. I think it’s a fair question of whether he could be a better fit at wing. For a guy who was a defensive disaster in the past he sure did a good job as a checking center this season. If he would just shoot the puck 200+ times a year he probably would get more love even if he does shy away from physicality which just seems odd (and frustrating) at his size.
James G
Howden falls into the Ronning category for me. Not going to criticize or assume that they’re going to contribute at the NHL level until they have the opportunity to play for the Pack and or Rangers.
I honestly don’t think we should be assuming that this team is signing all 3 of Namestnikov Hayes and Spooner though even if the plan is for Spooner to play wing. Zibanejad plus those three may not give Gorton as much confidence as is needed going into next season.
Agree on the wait-and-see with Hayes, Pete. I didn’t say he’s turned any career corner. But I also think he is, and can be much, better than the popular notion here. A lot of people came up small in the playoffs the last few years, including the Little Bastard, everyone’s favorite Miller, BGB, the captain, etc.
TomK
Can’t believe I’m asking this, but I honestly don’t know. What kind of value could/should we expect for an RFA who is due a raise like:
Spooner
Hayes
Vesey
Namestikov
Skjei
Other than the Hagelin trade,(which was a disaster), I don’t recall the Rangers trading a lot of those kinds of players. What would be reasonable?
Beezle
Norm I don’t think there has been any ‘hate’ directed at Zuc on this blog. Hate is a strong word and a better example of that is blogs such as Blueshirtbanter and the vitriol that was directed at Girardi and others for a number of years. What I see here is more a reaction against the elevation of Zuc (and some times Hank’s) play above what is probably justified, keeping in mind different folks will always have different assesments of value.
Pete et al – I’m all for signing the RFAs we have. Everyone can’t be a rookie next season and none of these RFAs, including Spooner are old. We can potential trade if/when some of the younger kids show they do belong. Until then it provides a little bit of continuity and someone to show the kids the ropes.
James G
Tom, concerns about his attitude aside, they did just trade Miller since they didn’t want to commit long term to him.
I’m not a cap guy but seeing as how Zibanejad got 5 years at around 5.3 per and Calgary just signed Backlund to a six year deal where he’ll earn about the same per year that’s about where the agents will look for Hayes and Namestnikov who set career highs in goals. As for Spooner, he went to arbitration looking for 3.8 per last year and was awarded 2.8.
Again, I’m not a cap guru like some here but I think that’s all a given…
Norm Merton
Beezle, again (and again) “hate” is an expression. Like “hating on”, and commonly used here, an exaggeration to make a point. Of course nobody here actually hates the man, but he gets it in the neck here (better?) more than he deserves.
,
I don’t hate Haze; I think he can be a more effective forward than center, esp if he shoots more;
2C-
3C+
Pete
Skjei would have the most value of that group, followed by Names/Hayes, then spooner and Vesey the least given the smallest sample size and worst numbers (not all his fault given how he has been used but is what it is).
—-
As far as actual return, not easy to predict, but think you could get a similar talent level young forward for Brady, ie someone most likely to end up a 20 goal second liner but could do more if it all comes together or a 1st round pick for the right team.
—-
Names was essentially just traded for Miller so that speaks to his value and think you could make a similar trade with a team in need of a center. Hayes is probably about the same but maybe brings back a little less.
—-
Unless a team is really sold on Spooner or Vesey think you are looking at a late round 2nd or more likely a 3rd rounder and a lower level prospect. Could definitely see a team like Arizona making that kind of move with us.
—-Spooner has been a pleasant surprise thus far but might be hard to commit longterm to him for any kind of real money. As I’ve said before it also doesn’t make a ton of sense to have Mika, Hayes and Names locked up longterm with Anderson, Chytil and howden all in the pipeline and by all accounts similarly skilled players. Better to move one or 2 for picks and/or other positional needs like wingers with grit or shooters and/or righty D
SN
Lost with the ‘these guys are better than Miller crowd’ is the fact that both guys are faster yet smaller and not exactly tough on the wall. Two PO teams got rid of these 2 middle six forwards moving into the most grueling part of their schedule.
.
JT had trouble scoring goals in the POs, but always banged on the wall. Namestoolong has 1G in 29 career PO games; Spooner 0 in 4.
.
Highlight from last night’s Bolts game: https://www.nhl.com/lightning/video/kucherovs-game-tying-goal/c-58774503
.
That is all.
TomK
Thanks guys. Hey don’t look now, but the Tank Hawks are about to win a game!
Beezle
Namestoolong is not likely to get much over 3.25 on his next contract. Hayes will probably come in around 5. Just as reference, Namestoolong 1.91 pts per 60, Hayes 2.23
Norm Merton
I’ll try to post these numbers when and if the Rangers earn a point or [shudder] two as they continue to try to win the game that’s in front of them:
Here are the current lottery contestants and the odds that they get A) A top 3 pick, and B) Dahlin
53-Arizona A) 48.1% B) 18.0%
56-Buffalo A) 36.2% B) 12.5%
57-Ottawa A) 31.2% B) 10.5%
59-Vancouver A) 28.6% B) 9.5%
62-Montreal A) 25.9% B) 8.5%
63-Detroit A) 23.4% B) 7.6%
64-Edmonton A) 20.9% B) 6.7%
66-Chicago A) 18.3% B) 5.8%
67-Rangers A) 17.1% B) 5.4%
68-Isles A) 14.4% B) 4.5%
71-Carolina A) 10.7% B) 3.3%
77-Columbus A) 8.8% B) 2.7%
78-Isles (from CGY) A) 7.2% B) 1.8%
77-Phila. from ST) A) 5.9% B) 1.8%
80-Anaheim A) 3.3% B) 1.0%
So the Rangers could move up from 17.1% and 5.4% to 25.9% and 8.5% if they run the tank table, or down to 10.7% and 3.3% if they go on a winning streak. Given that it’s Dahlin and then anyone from Tkachuk, Svechnikov, Zadina, Boqvist, Hughes in the 2-6 spots, it may be that there’s not really that much to lose for.
Pete
Maybe in arbitration Beezle, but doubt he signs longterm for under 5 and same for Hayes.
—-
SN, fair point and also that in neither case were they likely to commit longterm so they moved them now rather than walk away from an arbitration award. Will be interesting to see what Tampa does with Miller as don’t think they will be able to commit longterm to Miller so he may only be there a couple seasons unless he is taking less money
ilb2001
Beezle, I don’t think Hayes is getting anything near $5M if he arbitrates. That would be the number to think about if they buy a few years of his UFA. Remember, they were able to buy a few years of Kreider’s UFA for $4.625M per.
Norm Merton
Marchand a last-second scratch vs. Hawks, the dread “upper-body injury”. If that’s as shady as it appears, smart move by the B’s. I think it might have been his earlobe.
ilb2001
There is no reason they shouldn’t qualify all of their RFAs and lose them for nothing.
Pete
Norm, I’m less sold on Tkchakuk, but the reports are the other two are skilled scoring wingers that while perhaps not generational talent have the potential to be first liners. We don’t really have any of those on our team or in our system (Kreider is the closest but consistency is his issue). Know less about the D but Dave was saying they could be top pair or 2nd pair even if not at the level of Dahlin. So unless the longterm goal is to simply be a middling team, there absolutely is something to lose for.
Pete
Think you move the guys before arbitration, draft being the most likely time
ilb2001
Of course you can move them on draft day. But right after that they have to be either qualified or they become UFAs
Norm Merton
Pete my point is that you’re moving, best case, from 17% to 26% [UPDATE, they’re now sitting at 18.3%!!!] to get a shot at a guy you might be able to pick later. So of course you want to improve your odds, but they’re not that good and not that different, not worth actually tanking for–that stuff’s toxic.
Norm Merton
Morning Skate “article” is like referring to a post here as an “article”. Fanboy site, starring Ked, Hal, Biz Dev Dale, Brett, Big red, JonnyA, Eddie, Isle5cleanup. Not saying they’re wrong, but I’ll take Carp.
Pete
Winning games at this point doesn’t help us at all Norm, it only makes it more likely they draft a guy who has even smaller chance of being an impact player. All about increasing odds at this point.
Not saying they should be shooting in their own net. But they can stop playing hank as much and let more guys from Hartford play upfront and give other guys bigger minutes to see what they have. I mean do we really need Fast on the 1st line?! Or any of those guys on the 4th line playing at all? And as there are even less games left you could even sit some of their better players. May not be the prettiest of things, but a guy like Zuc deciding to start scoring again when the games are meaningless isn’t helping our future any either
Pete
And this is a draft where the best guys are likely all gone by 6/7 so not sure what you mean when you say we might be able to pick them later.
ilb2001
I argue that playing Holland and McLeod, and perhaps even giving them more ice time, will increase their odds substantially
Norm Merton
Fast on the first line is an ANTI-tank missile? Newfound love for Fast’s first-line chops! And Zucc has “decided” to score? Huh? And the “best guys” are gone after 7? What crystal ball says that? It’s pretty to think that this stuff is all controllable, but history shows that outside the top 2-3 picks, it’s pretty much a crap shoot. Except in exceptional draft years, which this one appears not to be. Maybe things will cement by draft day, but I doubt it.
Norm Merton
In any event, now that their goose is officially cooked, I, too would like to see more Hartfords. ilb-types know ten times as much as I do about how to go about that contractually.
ilb2001
Holland, by the way, was taken at #15 in 2009 by Anaheim. NY took Kreider at 19. Buffalo took Kasian at 13. Pretty deep draft in general. Some real gems in second round.
Norm Merton
To the lottery, it’s better sometimes to be lucky than good:
2016:
Toronto 20% to get #1 –>Matthews
Winnepeg 15.3% to get #2–>Laine
Columbus 28% to get #3–>DuBois
2017:
Jersey 8.5% to get #1–> Hischier
Phila 4.6% to get #2–>Patrick
Dallas 18.3% to get #3–>Heiskanen
Pete
Norm, re fast on the 1st line my point was why aren’t they giving Vesey an audition on a higher line like that to see what he has offensively or even s guy like spooner. And yea the draft can always be a crap shoot at every pick, but the guys who cover this for a living are pretty much all saying it’s a top heavy draft and by the time you get to 7 or so the players are largely interchangeable. Couple be dead wrong of course but if the rangers can do small things to improve their odds of drafting closer to 5 than 10, I see nothing but upside of doing so. And yes Zuc (like Hayes) could be shooting a lot more all season long and for someone who is harping on others for getting you for the use of hate, wouldn’t think you’d take “decide” so literally.
—-
Ilb, I’d agree if they got the ice time of a first line, but that ain’t happening.
Alex
Carolina 71
Brooklyn 68
Chicago 68
Rangers 67
Edmonton 64
Detroit 63
Montreal 62
we’ve played 69 games
chicago played 70 games
others played 68 games
brooklyn plays at calgary tonight. hopefully they win in ot to also give calgary a point since they have calgarys number 1
there are 4 teams below montreal
the race is on
ilb2001
They can also potentially use their 2 late firsts to get another one within 14.
SN
Sorry about the lack of an authoritarian source to quickly align your thoughts around.
Norm Merton
I didn’t take “decide” literally, Pete. I took it to mean you thought he was trying to score now and not before now. But fair enough if you meant his team’s bad luck that he’s having better luck.
Norm Merton
SN, what’s your hang-up with authority? You could have said about the Spooner piece that you read an opinion on a fan blog rather than intimate that the site produces “articles”, implying sort of professionalism or sourcing. Carp’s a journalist who knows more about the Rangers than we do, is my point. Does that make him an authority? Well, yeah. Doesn’t mean you can’t disagree with him or agree with a fanboy, but he does it for a living. I wish the boys at Hockey Pond well if that’s what they’re trying to do.
Whether one ‘hates’ or doesn’t ‘hate’ Haze is inconsequential; the fact remains that he has more to give and had better start giving it.
James G
Much like with Hagelin they could choose to trade an expiring RFA contract at the draft. Nothing says they have to allow any player to walk away for nothing..
Norm Merton
20 goals by 3/11, baby! I bet you’re wondering how many Rangers have pulled that off in the last few years! Actually, I bet you’re not.
I’ve wondered if Kreider gets an “A” on his sweater next year. Assuming Shattenkirk gets his game back, he might be worthy of a letter as well.
Bdl
The sensitive one gets all the letters. You don’t want to upset him.
St Pete Eli
Just lose baby!
Alex
I’d like Kreider to get a letter too
I think we go with several A’s and no C
BobbyO
good recap Carp but obviously too many positive vibes on Zucc and Hayes… don’t you know they suck
TomK
Islanders up 3-1 on Calgary.
Pete
Yup and all good Norm!!
E3
Zucchini sux
Norm Merton
Especially in canoe form. “Zu-canoe” it was called–some barely cooked halved squash filled with some slimy concoction or other. Battle of wills. Mom insisted I eat the thing, I refused. Hours went by, can’t recall who won. Still can’t touch the stuff as a result.
E3
Squash is good
E3
Norm – I gave a cute talk a few weeks ago on deriving trig identities after deriving Euler’s Identity and using Taylor Series Expansion. You’d have liked it.
E3
Zucc does suck but that was a sick move in the shootout.
Norm Merton
I would have. Haven’t taught BC Calc these last couple of years–never thought I’d miss it, but the Taylor/Euler biz is fun.
E3
Very sexy stuff. Useful in deriving the underdamped solutions to constant coefficient second order differential equations as well
MKH
Question for Carp and/or others – would you trade one of the RFA (Hayes, Spooner, etc) and two first round picks(Rangers and 1 from trades) to move up and get Dahlin? Do you think the team with the #1 pick would make that deal?
EddieJ
” Useful in deriving the underdamped solutions to constant coefficient second order differential equations as well.”
E3- That’s a lie and you know it!
simonkimbrell
I like what i’ve seen ffrom Hayes recently, i think he knows he has to step up his game and his recent point totals show he has. He’s always going to look lke a laid back goofball, but if he can start putting points up regularly then he’s off my WBM list.
I also like Spooner, he likes to cary the puck so he’s going to need linemates who are direct and crash the net. Kreider and Vesey seem to be the ones doing that the most in our current lineup.
St Pete Eli
MHM
Only Sather would make that trade and Dahlin would wind up a bust!
Pete
MHM, other teams have the young nhlers/high end prospects to snag Dahlin (whether they would give them up for an 18yr old is another question), but the Rangers don’t and so we’d be offering quality over quality. Don’t see the teams above us biting on such a deal.
MHM – It depends on where the Rangers pick is. If they end up with the second pick then I would be just as happy to draft Svechnikov, Zadina or Tkachuk. If it is the 10th pick then I am more tempted. In the end, I don’t see any of our RFAs being enough to tilt the scales to go from say 10 to 1. It would cost two first rounders and an RFA at the very least – unless it is Edmonton at 1 and they want to balance out the result of the Hall for Larsson deal. Still can’t believe the Oilers made that trade.
ilb2001
Good morning, boneheads!
I do not know enough about this draft, but from what everyone says Dahlin appears to be a generational ( or close to it ) player. Nobody will give him up. You stay at what you have. Unless someone beats the odds from below you, your odds increase after first and second selection to get #2 and #3 respectively. They’ll need to do a great deal of homework before deciding whether it’s even worth giving up one of the late first picks to improve their position by a few spots.
CCCP
Playing emotionally drained Hank over young and hungry Georgiev (Who has played very well) is our best tank option in net.
St Pete Eli
I think giving up 1st rd picks defeats the purpose of a rebuild. It’s what got the organization in trouble in the first place. Dahlin may be a generational player and if that’s the case no one is trading down to give him up! Stay the course hopefully it pays off in the long run!
St Pete Eli
Better yet the short run!
cregg7
agree. imagine being a fanbase of a team that traded down away from a mcdavid, crosby or ovi type player. the excuse being needing to stock the cupboard and gain more pieces. that GM would be lambasted and would immediately be on the hot seat. only scenario that happens is if there was collusion
I might be more willing to move the two late first round picks for a pick in the top 10-15. For example, if the Rangers ended up with picks 2-4 I could see them looking to move up if someone like a Bode Wilde were available at 10 or so.
Conversely, if Gary Bettman went all David Stern and we got the first overall pick I still might look to move up if Oliver Wahlstrom dropped to around 10 or so.
DaveB
I’m with you Anthony. Unless we’re offering up a prized prospect in addition to our top pick + other first rounders, we’re not getting Dahlin unless we win the lottery. And if we wind up with a top-4 pick, I would certainly try and use our remaining picks to get to the 10-12 range. Especially is Wahlstrom or Wilde were available. And since 5 thru 12 is so heavy on dmen, you might see teams drafting for need and a guy like Dobson or Bouchard fall to the mid-teens.
DaveB
Two articles on my yahoo feed, side by side:
“Brad Marchand showing leadership when it counts most for Bruins” – New England Sportsnet
“Brad Marchand in hot water again after reckless clothesline of Anthony Duclair” – Sporting News
Calhob
Can’t a team in the lottery only move up like 4 spots or something? I thought I heard that last year….
CCCP
Well, not at the draft but Edmonton’s GM recently traded a very close to a generational player Taylor Hall for a no name and most likely will never have a name defensemen from New Jersey.
DaveB
Not so Calhob. It’s that a team can’t fall more than 4 spots. Like, if Arizona finishes dead last and has the best chance of winning the lottery, but then 3 teams behind them win spots 1, 2, and 3, Arizona would pick 4th.
Calhob
Ah, can’t go back that may spots…. thanks, that makes sense
Calhob
many*
DaveB
I think we overuse the term “generational player.” McDavid was a generational talent. I don’t think Eichel or even Matthews is a generational talent. McDavid was the first one since Crosby/Ovechkin. Before them? You could make an argument for Joe Thornton, but to me he’s borderline…before him Lindros…then all the way back to Lemieux.
In between McDavid and Crosby there were a slew of star players that I wouldn’t consider generational talents…Kane, Stamkos, Tavares…all superstar players, but once/twice in a generation? Nah.
Dahlin is going to be a star defenseman, but generational? I don’t see it. Doesn’t make him any less attractive.
CCCP
Is generational the same as franchise player? Or is it different?
DaveB
I always viewed generational as a level above franchise. Like, this is a rare type of player the likes of which you won’t see for another 10 years. The math doesn’t always work…we got two in a row with Crosby/Ovechkin, and went almost 12-13 years in between Lindros and Ovie.
Also didn’t mean to call you out or anything CCCP. I’ve just been seeing the “generational” thing popping up all over the place.
CCCP
Dave
You forgot to mention MalKING as a generational player. Now, that IS a generational player.
To me, he stands above Crybeetch, Ovi, and even McDavid so far.
Malkin is borderline for me. Superstar, but a game-changing talent? He’s close.
But going into that draft, he wasn’t lauded as that type of prospect. Just like Jagr was an all-time great top-10 player in history, but was thought of as a pretty nice prospect (and drafted 6th overall) in his draft class.
To me, the generational designation is more about how the player is viewed going into the draft + how they turn out.
Alex
Callob
several years ago a team could not move up more than a few spots (maybe 4 or 5) in the lottery. i believe that it was only 1 team moving up as well.
now 3 teams can move up – that’s been going on for a very few years now. so the worst record can fall from 1 to 4 but any team in the lottery can move up to top 3 spots as said above.
CCCP
MalKING is not a game changing talent? Hhmmm… I think you’re mistaking him with Ovechkin 😉
DaveB
But did the arrival of Malkin change the hockey landscape in a big way? The way the arrivals of McDavid, Crosby, Ovechkin, Lindros, and Lemieux did?
Possibly. But he didn’t go into his draft being anointed a generational. So to me, he falls into the “plain ole superstar” bucket.
Alex
Dave B
5th overall for Jagr as teams above didn’t know about chances of him coming over. Thank God Pitt drafted him as Islanders had 6th pick. The Islander guy picked played 2 nhl games or 2 more than the Ranger guy played.
The Islanders also finished with 1 more point than the Pens that year.
You’re right on the pick, Alex. For some reason I misremembered Scissons going 5th and Jagr going 6th. Either way, that’s a Ranger-level pick by the Isles right there.
I can’t verify the reports going into that draft, but were they saying that a player like Jaromir Jagr only comes across once in a generation?
#NYR morning skate has begun. Georgiev is in starters net but we’ll see when AV talks shortly.
Pavelec taking shots at the end of the morning skate.
DaveB
Cool, the Athletic running a story on how awesome a GM Steve Yzerman is. Good on them, telling a story nobody else has picked up.
simonkimbrell
Every other player in the top 8 – 900+ games.
Thats definitely a good demonstration of getting into the top 8!
Norm Merton
Malkin in position for another Ross and/or Hart this year. Since the beginning of the year he’s up 10 points on Crosby. Kucherov in 15th there, though still in the season lead by a point, has tailed off dramatically.
simonkimbrell
Although we did get the pick of the 2nd round that year in Doug Weight before swapping him for Esa “Chicken” Tikkanen
Alex
Simon
But look at the end of the 1st round that year
CCCP
Crosby changed landscape of the game? If adjusting league rules every time Crosby whines means changing landscape of the game, then sure, I agree.
When healthy, MalKING is the best player in the world. Bar none.
simonkimbrell
Alex – i know!!
I don’t actually think we will have both of those picks when it comes time to choose. Gorton will be doing his everything to move up a few places. If we end up with a pick in the 8-10 range, Gorton will want to be in the top 5/6 for sure – so you use one to move up a few places to get a guy like Tkachuk or Wahlstrom – unless you think one might drop in your lap
I also think Malkin is better than Crosby, but only when I wear my borscht colored glasses.
cregg7
Cccp. Are you sure it’s not the Russian bias speaKiNG
Lol
cregg7
Crosby is crybaby. Pens gifted their “dynasty” type team with the draft rules and lockout. Getting both Mallon and Crosby not to mention Staal Fleury and letang all through a short period of multiple lottery picks.
Disgusting amount of advantage given to them to save the franchise and lemieux participation
cregg7
But I will admit Crosby is generational talent and I do think he is maturing as he ages. Was way worse of a spoiled brat his first 8 years or so.
Beezle
Ilb et al:
Namestoolong still has two years of RFA after this season if I’ve understood the rules correctly. This has really been his best season, part of it coming on top TB line. For that reason, I would be surprised to see him get any contract much over 3 or 3.25, still a big upgrade over his current figure. Would think top end on that might include first year as UFA on a 3yr deal, other wise around 3 or just under on a 2yr RFA contract.
Doritos on the other hand only has one year left as an RFA so you are looking at a situation where you probably will be buying one or two years of UFA. Hence my belief he is going to go closer to 5 than to 4.
Finally, please send all your snow north. They are teasing me with another 30+” forecast for this week.
SN
Beezle – Spring Skiing in Upstate NY and VT this weekend. Keep the snow north where it can be properly enjoyed.
Rob
I simmed the lottery 29 times before we got the first pick! We got the second pick on the 9th and 24th lotteries though.
Rob
Also, the Islanders got the first pick before we did in my simming, with their pick from Calgary
Beezle
SN stop cursing at me! Spring!?! ITS STILL WINTER!!!
DaveB
Fine – I’ll give you Malkin!
ilb2001
Beezle- Namestnikov’s situation is a little complex because he signed his first contract in 2012 when he was still 19, but his ELC signing age was considered 20 because he turned 20 before December 31( his birthday is in November). Therefore he wasn’t eligible for ELC slide risk. Because of that he is completing his 6th pro season. After next season he will have 7 years under his belt and will be eligible to become an UFA even though he will only 26. They can only give him/arbitrate with him for 1 year.
CCCP
Yeah, whatever. I will not get into who is better Punk b*tch or MalKING argument. I know, and you know, deep down inside, that MalKING is better.
🙂
SN
Amazing a team with 2 ‘generational’ talents were taken out by NYR in the POs in back to back seasons.
I hope I die before I get old…
Norm Merton
Malkin vs. Crosby is great apples vs. great oranges. Different players, both hugely productive. I prefer Malkin but that’s primarily because I have a problem with Sid’s mustache.
The numbers don’t decide, but they illustrate:
Crosby: 852 GP, 0.47535 goals/game, 1.72 assists/game, 1.66 points/game
Malkin: 772 GP, 0.47539 goals/game, 1.50 assists/game, 1.58 points/game
I wish it weren’t the case, but Sid’s numbers are marginally better (note the goals-scored margin!)
CCCP
Sid the skid has extra 80 games on Zhenya. So….
ilb2001
If we had either of them starting in 2012, we have at least 2 Cups.
CCCP
ALSO, MalKING won the cup without Sids help… AND was named a postseason MVP deservedly…unlike the Sid who was given his just because he’s Crosby.
Booby
Crosby is better than Malkin in the following categories.
Skating
Edgework
Faceoffs (considerably)
Defense
Stick handling
Passing
Vision
Hockey sense
Leadership
I’d say they’re pretty even in shooting ability. Malkin gets the edge in the sick highlight-reel goals category, but that’s about it. Malkin is awesome and I like him more than Crosby, but he’s not as good a player.
Booby
Where’s James? We need to be trash talking each other before this week’s playoff round in the Bonehead league.
St Pete Eli
You may all disagree but until Sam recnounces his infamous “This one will last a lifetime” proclamation we are probably doomed!
Alex
St Pete
whose lifetime and how old and how healthy are they
I was reading Corey Pronman’s Athletic article on college (and drafted) players who are set to become free agents this summer and I came across an interesting name from North Dakota.
Sioux – What say yee to Christian Wolanin. He seems to be a puck moving d-man who has improved defensively. And of course, he is a lefty shot.
The highest the Rangers have drafted post 1967 expansion was 4th overall in 1999 when they traded up to select Pavel Brendl. The highest they have picked on their own was 6th overall – and they did it twice. In 1976 they drafted Don Murdoch and in 2004 they drafted Al Montoya.
Pre 1967, the Rangers had the 1st overall pick in 1975 and they drafted C Andre Veilleux. In those days most amateur players were sponsored so the pickings were slim. The only two of 11 drafted players that year to make the NHL were Pierre Bouchard and Michel Parizeau. The NHL also increased the minimum draft age from 16 to 18 (but you couldn’t negotiate until they were 19).
The next year they had the 2nd overall pick and drafted some guy named Brad Park. Boston took Barry Gibbs 1st overall. There were four rounds that year and all four Ranger picks played in the NHL: Joey Johnston (2nd), Don Luce (3rd) and Jack Egers (4th).
Booby
Played around with the draft simulator that UK posted earlier. It took me 21 attempts for the NYR to land the top pick. Then on attempt #22 they got the first pick again. That made me feel irrationally good about things.
Beezle
Ilb thanks for the correction on Namestoodlong, didn’t realize he was 19 not 20 on the ELC. Even so, still don’t think he’s getting close to 5. 4? maybe but I don’t think I want to be the one giving him that, at least not yet.
Pavel Brendl should be example #1 of why trading up is fraught with peril. Would love to re-read the glowing scouting reports on him again.
Neil Smith picked the wrong year to build through the Draft. Brendl and Jamie Lundmark were among a long list of non-prospects that year. Patrik Stefan went 1st overall and then the Sedins went 2/3.
Tim Connolly (5th to NYI) was a good player but concussions got the better of him. You had meh type players like Taylor Pyatt, Jeff Jillson and Nick Boynton go in the first, but after the top three the best players were Barret Jackman (17th) and Martin Havlat (26th).
As bad as the Rangers were, the Islanders had four picks in the 1st: Connolly, Pyatt (8th), Branislav Mezei (1oth) and Kristian Kudroc (28th). Devils swung and missed on Ari Ahonen (27th).
165 responses to “Rangers-3, Panthers-4 ( OT )”
And sorry for not being around much this weekend. Life happens…
Carp part of nefarious conspiracy to lift Zucc’s spirits. Had some good things to say about Hayes as well. Suspicious. Or to put it another way, observant.
I’m a Hayes fan, and I happen to think he has more to give. But I am not blind to what others see with Hayes. I understand why he frustrates so many people.
ilb
Agree life happens. My wife and I with our 8 month old grandson almost the entire day yesterday!
from the aborted last thread:
Spooner pts/60: 14/15: 2.56, 15/16 2.43, 16/17 2.13, 17/18 (total) 3.25
Dammit, ilb 🙂
I was saying that, I know by now that everybody has to have players they hate no matter what, but IMO Hayes has been quite good and quite productive for a while now. IMHO. I said it in the review, I think he can be a bigger scorer … if he wants to be.
28 points in 30 games since moving to wing.
Norm – It isn’t that most people are Zucc “haters”. It is that some people are at odds with a segment of the Rangers fandom that canonize St. Zucc. He is a great story and a nice player. He is also going to be 31 at the start of next season and will be an UFA at the end of next year. The team couldn;t afford to sign McDonagh and the team can’t afford to give St. Zucc the $6 million per year someone will. It is not personal, it is strictly business.
Aw, look at the little bastard.
Spooner, Norm? If he stays in NY ( big if as it appears his numbers may substantiate a significant raise from $2,825M by arbitrator) he is going to play wing. You can argue all you want whether his game is more suited for wing or center ( I believe he’s better on the wing ), but with Zibanejad, Hayes, Namestnikov ( another if, but they are more likely to retain him than Spooner ), Andersson, Chytil, and potential addition of a true 4th line center, it’s just too crowded at center.
Carp, by the way, you forgot to duck yesterday when you said both Spooner and Namestnikov are better players than Miller. So, I’m ducking now.
By the way, my son was at the game yesterday too. Visiting his best friend in Florida. Tried to text him, no response yet. Something tells me he went to bed a tad late last night…Aw, the single life 🙂
Spooner debate from previous thread, ilb.
Anthony, I’m referring to the Zucc hate on this blog. Not my favorite player, but he’s overly abused here.
More than one current center( I’m including Andersson and Chytil) is going to have to move to wing, or be traded.
Like it or not Zucc means a ton to this team in a lot of ways. Leadership on and off the ice, solid play in both ends, and, yes, a fan favorite. If a segment of the fan base can actually trash Lundqvist despite what he has meant to the team for more than a decade, it’s not much of a surprise that people will go after Zucc. I for one hope Zucc survives the summer and stays a Ranger. He is not and never will be the most important player on the team, but he is a vital cog and when he plays like last night is pretty damn impressive (for a Hobbit).
Hayes came up small during the stretch the last couple years, so until he does it when the games mean anything can’t say i’m fully buying he has turned a corner. Also think in perfect world he is a wing in the top 6 rather rather than a center (profiles more as a 3rd line center to me).
–Rangers will have to make some important decisions as soon as this offseason because we really shouldn’t be tying up 20m+/yr on Mika, Hayes , Names and Spooner longterm or even next year. Best course of action may be to move 2 of that group this offseason.
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Sure hope Hank is on the bench on Tuesday night and we call up some guys from Hartford for the 4th line. Need to start dressing the best lineup for the draft lottery!!
Don’t forget Brett Howden in the center mix. He’s prob ticketed for Hartford next season but should get a long look in camp AND be in consideration for a bottom-6 role the season after next. If he’s your natural size-and-strength center, then Hayes could definitely be shifted to the wing. His time at center can only help his overall game.
But we don’t want to be TOO effective next season. We need to Lose for Hughes, Lack for Jack.
way too many 2nd through 4th line centers!!!
Spooner has been crazy good. Wonder if it’s for real? I’d like to see Hank sit a bit too. Pretty important to determine if Georgi should be the back up next year (assuming he would get at least 25-30 games) and no need to risk Henrik’s health or sanity much more this season. With their upcoming schedule it sure looks like his 30 wins mark will go by the wayside anyway. C’est la vie.
Hopefully Phil Heatle is a top line center Pete. Not holding my breath though.
Not that I think Corey Pronman is the authority on all things prospects (especially since he doesn’t see much in Hajek or Howden), but I posed the question to him about where Chytil would rank if he were slightly younger and available for this upcoming draft. He thought not in the top 5, but right there with the top centers available in the 10-15 range (who aren’t studs).
But again, hopefully he develops into something more than a good 2C. If not, we’re not getting a 1C this draft. And if we don’t Lose for Hughes next season…it seems like another elite-center-lite draft, albeit super early.
Don’t think Spooner is going to put up points at this kind of pace on a consistent basis going forward unless he truly has turned into a new player.
Yea I’m not too optimistic Chytil turns into a real #1 center. Not impossible, but lot of work to show he is that at the NHL level
ILB, you talk about this team down the middle as if there’s a guarantee that all of these guys get offered new contracts. Do we really think that in the midst of a rebuild Gorton isn’t thinking there’s a need for an upgrade? He’s seen what having 2 or 3 Cs who are very good and ideal for second or third line duty gets you. I think we need to wait and see what we have come camp. And that includes where they find Spooner to be ideal. (they being this coach or the next)
On Spooner: He makes me curious. There’s more skill than I thought. Not sure the productivity is at this current pace next season but then again I penciled Grabner in for 10-15 goals last season and 15-20 this year.
On Hayes: Yes, He frustrates me with the way he’s notoriously held on to the puck for too long and not used his size to his advantage thus far in his young career.
I certainly don’t “hate” him. In fact I was one of his biggest supporters here in years 1 and 2. I think it’s a fair question of whether he could be a better fit at wing. For a guy who was a defensive disaster in the past he sure did a good job as a checking center this season. If he would just shoot the puck 200+ times a year he probably would get more love even if he does shy away from physicality which just seems odd (and frustrating) at his size.
Howden falls into the Ronning category for me. Not going to criticize or assume that they’re going to contribute at the NHL level until they have the opportunity to play for the Pack and or Rangers.
I honestly don’t think we should be assuming that this team is signing all 3 of Namestnikov Hayes and Spooner though even if the plan is for Spooner to play wing. Zibanejad plus those three may not give Gorton as much confidence as is needed going into next season.
Agree on the wait-and-see with Hayes, Pete. I didn’t say he’s turned any career corner. But I also think he is, and can be much, better than the popular notion here. A lot of people came up small in the playoffs the last few years, including the Little Bastard, everyone’s favorite Miller, BGB, the captain, etc.
Can’t believe I’m asking this, but I honestly don’t know. What kind of value could/should we expect for an RFA who is due a raise like:
Spooner
Hayes
Vesey
Namestikov
Skjei
Other than the Hagelin trade,(which was a disaster), I don’t recall the Rangers trading a lot of those kinds of players. What would be reasonable?
Norm I don’t think there has been any ‘hate’ directed at Zuc on this blog. Hate is a strong word and a better example of that is blogs such as Blueshirtbanter and the vitriol that was directed at Girardi and others for a number of years. What I see here is more a reaction against the elevation of Zuc (and some times Hank’s) play above what is probably justified, keeping in mind different folks will always have different assesments of value.
Pete et al – I’m all for signing the RFAs we have. Everyone can’t be a rookie next season and none of these RFAs, including Spooner are old. We can potential trade if/when some of the younger kids show they do belong. Until then it provides a little bit of continuity and someone to show the kids the ropes.
Tom, concerns about his attitude aside, they did just trade Miller since they didn’t want to commit long term to him.
I’m not a cap guy but seeing as how Zibanejad got 5 years at around 5.3 per and Calgary just signed Backlund to a six year deal where he’ll earn about the same per year that’s about where the agents will look for Hayes and Namestnikov who set career highs in goals. As for Spooner, he went to arbitration looking for 3.8 per last year and was awarded 2.8.
Again, I’m not a cap guru like some here but I think that’s all a given…
Beezle, again (and again) “hate” is an expression. Like “hating on”, and commonly used here, an exaggeration to make a point. Of course nobody here actually hates the man, but he gets it in the neck here (better?) more than he deserves.
like “The Hated One.”
Good article on Spooner with the takeaway: “Watch Ryan Spooner go to another NHL franchise and annually put up 55-65 points in a top two center role.”
,
I don’t hate Haze; I think he can be a more effective forward than center, esp if he shoots more;
2C-
3C+
Skjei would have the most value of that group, followed by Names/Hayes, then spooner and Vesey the least given the smallest sample size and worst numbers (not all his fault given how he has been used but is what it is).
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As far as actual return, not easy to predict, but think you could get a similar talent level young forward for Brady, ie someone most likely to end up a 20 goal second liner but could do more if it all comes together or a 1st round pick for the right team.
—-
Names was essentially just traded for Miller so that speaks to his value and think you could make a similar trade with a team in need of a center. Hayes is probably about the same but maybe brings back a little less.
—-
Unless a team is really sold on Spooner or Vesey think you are looking at a late round 2nd or more likely a 3rd rounder and a lower level prospect. Could definitely see a team like Arizona making that kind of move with us.
—-Spooner has been a pleasant surprise thus far but might be hard to commit longterm to him for any kind of real money. As I’ve said before it also doesn’t make a ton of sense to have Mika, Hayes and Names locked up longterm with Anderson, Chytil and howden all in the pipeline and by all accounts similarly skilled players. Better to move one or 2 for picks and/or other positional needs like wingers with grit or shooters and/or righty D
Lost with the ‘these guys are better than Miller crowd’ is the fact that both guys are faster yet smaller and not exactly tough on the wall. Two PO teams got rid of these 2 middle six forwards moving into the most grueling part of their schedule.
.
JT had trouble scoring goals in the POs, but always banged on the wall. Namestoolong has 1G in 29 career PO games; Spooner 0 in 4.
.
Highlight from last night’s Bolts game:
https://www.nhl.com/lightning/video/kucherovs-game-tying-goal/c-58774503
.
That is all.
Thanks guys. Hey don’t look now, but the Tank Hawks are about to win a game!
Namestoolong is not likely to get much over 3.25 on his next contract. Hayes will probably come in around 5. Just as reference, Namestoolong 1.91 pts per 60, Hayes 2.23
I’ll try to post these numbers when and if the Rangers earn a point or [shudder] two as they continue to try to win the game that’s in front of them:
Here are the current lottery contestants and the odds that they get A) A top 3 pick, and B) Dahlin
53-Arizona A) 48.1% B) 18.0%
56-Buffalo A) 36.2% B) 12.5%
57-Ottawa A) 31.2% B) 10.5%
59-Vancouver A) 28.6% B) 9.5%
62-Montreal A) 25.9% B) 8.5%
63-Detroit A) 23.4% B) 7.6%
64-Edmonton A) 20.9% B) 6.7%
66-Chicago A) 18.3% B) 5.8%
67-Rangers A) 17.1% B) 5.4%
68-Isles A) 14.4% B) 4.5%
71-Carolina A) 10.7% B) 3.3%
77-Columbus A) 8.8% B) 2.7%
78-Isles (from CGY) A) 7.2% B) 1.8%
77-Phila. from ST) A) 5.9% B) 1.8%
80-Anaheim A) 3.3% B) 1.0%
So the Rangers could move up from 17.1% and 5.4% to 25.9% and 8.5% if they run the tank table, or down to 10.7% and 3.3% if they go on a winning streak. Given that it’s Dahlin and then anyone from Tkachuk, Svechnikov, Zadina, Boqvist, Hughes in the 2-6 spots, it may be that there’s not really that much to lose for.
Maybe in arbitration Beezle, but doubt he signs longterm for under 5 and same for Hayes.
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SN, fair point and also that in neither case were they likely to commit longterm so they moved them now rather than walk away from an arbitration award. Will be interesting to see what Tampa does with Miller as don’t think they will be able to commit longterm to Miller so he may only be there a couple seasons unless he is taking less money
Beezle, I don’t think Hayes is getting anything near $5M if he arbitrates. That would be the number to think about if they buy a few years of his UFA. Remember, they were able to buy a few years of Kreider’s UFA for $4.625M per.
Marchand a last-second scratch vs. Hawks, the dread “upper-body injury”. If that’s as shady as it appears, smart move by the B’s. I think it might have been his earlobe.
There is no reason they shouldn’t qualify all of their RFAs and lose them for nothing.
Norm, I’m less sold on Tkchakuk, but the reports are the other two are skilled scoring wingers that while perhaps not generational talent have the potential to be first liners. We don’t really have any of those on our team or in our system (Kreider is the closest but consistency is his issue). Know less about the D but Dave was saying they could be top pair or 2nd pair even if not at the level of Dahlin. So unless the longterm goal is to simply be a middling team, there absolutely is something to lose for.
Think you move the guys before arbitration, draft being the most likely time
Of course you can move them on draft day. But right after that they have to be either qualified or they become UFAs
Pete my point is that you’re moving, best case, from 17% to 26% [UPDATE, they’re now sitting at 18.3%!!!] to get a shot at a guy you might be able to pick later. So of course you want to improve your odds, but they’re not that good and not that different, not worth actually tanking for–that stuff’s toxic.
Morning Skate “article” is like referring to a post here as an “article”. Fanboy site, starring Ked, Hal, Biz Dev Dale, Brett, Big red, JonnyA, Eddie, Isle5cleanup. Not saying they’re wrong, but I’ll take Carp.
Winning games at this point doesn’t help us at all Norm, it only makes it more likely they draft a guy who has even smaller chance of being an impact player. All about increasing odds at this point.
Not saying they should be shooting in their own net. But they can stop playing hank as much and let more guys from Hartford play upfront and give other guys bigger minutes to see what they have. I mean do we really need Fast on the 1st line?! Or any of those guys on the 4th line playing at all? And as there are even less games left you could even sit some of their better players. May not be the prettiest of things, but a guy like Zuc deciding to start scoring again when the games are meaningless isn’t helping our future any either
And this is a draft where the best guys are likely all gone by 6/7 so not sure what you mean when you say we might be able to pick them later.
I argue that playing Holland and McLeod, and perhaps even giving them more ice time, will increase their odds substantially
Fast on the first line is an ANTI-tank missile? Newfound love for Fast’s first-line chops! And Zucc has “decided” to score? Huh? And the “best guys” are gone after 7? What crystal ball says that? It’s pretty to think that this stuff is all controllable, but history shows that outside the top 2-3 picks, it’s pretty much a crap shoot. Except in exceptional draft years, which this one appears not to be. Maybe things will cement by draft day, but I doubt it.
In any event, now that their goose is officially cooked, I, too would like to see more Hartfords. ilb-types know ten times as much as I do about how to go about that contractually.
Holland, by the way, was taken at #15 in 2009 by Anaheim. NY took Kreider at 19. Buffalo took Kasian at 13. Pretty deep draft in general. Some real gems in second round.
To the lottery, it’s better sometimes to be lucky than good:
2016:
Toronto 20% to get #1 –>Matthews
Winnepeg 15.3% to get #2–>Laine
Columbus 28% to get #3–>DuBois
2017:
Jersey 8.5% to get #1–> Hischier
Phila 4.6% to get #2–>Patrick
Dallas 18.3% to get #3–>Heiskanen
Norm, re fast on the 1st line my point was why aren’t they giving Vesey an audition on a higher line like that to see what he has offensively or even s guy like spooner. And yea the draft can always be a crap shoot at every pick, but the guys who cover this for a living are pretty much all saying it’s a top heavy draft and by the time you get to 7 or so the players are largely interchangeable. Couple be dead wrong of course but if the rangers can do small things to improve their odds of drafting closer to 5 than 10, I see nothing but upside of doing so. And yes Zuc (like Hayes) could be shooting a lot more all season long and for someone who is harping on others for getting you for the use of hate, wouldn’t think you’d take “decide” so literally.
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Ilb, I’d agree if they got the ice time of a first line, but that ain’t happening.
Carolina 71
Brooklyn 68
Chicago 68
Rangers 67
Edmonton 64
Detroit 63
Montreal 62
we’ve played 69 games
chicago played 70 games
others played 68 games
brooklyn plays at calgary tonight. hopefully they win in ot to also give calgary a point since they have calgarys number 1
there are 4 teams below montreal
the race is on
They can also potentially use their 2 late firsts to get another one within 14.
Sorry about the lack of an authoritarian source to quickly align your thoughts around.
I didn’t take “decide” literally, Pete. I took it to mean you thought he was trying to score now and not before now. But fair enough if you meant his team’s bad luck that he’s having better luck.
SN, what’s your hang-up with authority? You could have said about the Spooner piece that you read an opinion on a fan blog rather than intimate that the site produces “articles”, implying sort of professionalism or sourcing. Carp’s a journalist who knows more about the Rangers than we do, is my point. Does that make him an authority? Well, yeah. Doesn’t mean you can’t disagree with him or agree with a fanboy, but he does it for a living. I wish the boys at Hockey Pond well if that’s what they’re trying to do.
Whether one ‘hates’ or doesn’t ‘hate’ Haze is inconsequential; the fact remains that he has more to give and had better start giving it.
Much like with Hagelin they could choose to trade an expiring RFA contract at the draft. Nothing says they have to allow any player to walk away for nothing..
20 goals by 3/11, baby! I bet you’re wondering how many Rangers have pulled that off in the last few years! Actually, I bet you’re not.
And you’d be correct
I’ve wondered if Kreider gets an “A” on his sweater next year. Assuming Shattenkirk gets his game back, he might be worthy of a letter as well.
The sensitive one gets all the letters. You don’t want to upset him.
Just lose baby!
I’d like Kreider to get a letter too
I think we go with several A’s and no C
good recap Carp but obviously too many positive vibes on Zucc and Hayes… don’t you know they suck
Islanders up 3-1 on Calgary.
Yup and all good Norm!!
Zucchini sux
Especially in canoe form. “Zu-canoe” it was called–some barely cooked halved squash filled with some slimy concoction or other. Battle of wills. Mom insisted I eat the thing, I refused. Hours went by, can’t recall who won. Still can’t touch the stuff as a result.
Squash is good
Norm – I gave a cute talk a few weeks ago on deriving trig identities after deriving Euler’s Identity and using Taylor Series Expansion. You’d have liked it.
Zucc does suck but that was a sick move in the shootout.
I would have. Haven’t taught BC Calc these last couple of years–never thought I’d miss it, but the Taylor/Euler biz is fun.
Very sexy stuff. Useful in deriving the underdamped solutions to constant coefficient second order differential equations as well
Question for Carp and/or others – would you trade one of the RFA (Hayes, Spooner, etc) and two first round picks(Rangers and 1 from trades) to move up and get Dahlin? Do you think the team with the #1 pick would make that deal?
” Useful in deriving the underdamped solutions to constant coefficient second order differential equations as well.”
E3- That’s a lie and you know it!
I like what i’ve seen ffrom Hayes recently, i think he knows he has to step up his game and his recent point totals show he has. He’s always going to look lke a laid back goofball, but if he can start putting points up regularly then he’s off my WBM list.
I also like Spooner, he likes to cary the puck so he’s going to need linemates who are direct and crash the net. Kreider and Vesey seem to be the ones doing that the most in our current lineup.
MHM
Only Sather would make that trade and Dahlin would wind up a bust!
MHM, other teams have the young nhlers/high end prospects to snag Dahlin (whether they would give them up for an 18yr old is another question), but the Rangers don’t and so we’d be offering quality over quality. Don’t see the teams above us biting on such a deal.
*quantity over quality
MHM – It depends on where the Rangers pick is. If they end up with the second pick then I would be just as happy to draft Svechnikov, Zadina or Tkachuk. If it is the 10th pick then I am more tempted. In the end, I don’t see any of our RFAs being enough to tilt the scales to go from say 10 to 1. It would cost two first rounders and an RFA at the very least – unless it is Edmonton at 1 and they want to balance out the result of the Hall for Larsson deal. Still can’t believe the Oilers made that trade.
Good morning, boneheads!
I do not know enough about this draft, but from what everyone says Dahlin appears to be a generational ( or close to it ) player. Nobody will give him up. You stay at what you have. Unless someone beats the odds from below you, your odds increase after first and second selection to get #2 and #3 respectively. They’ll need to do a great deal of homework before deciding whether it’s even worth giving up one of the late first picks to improve their position by a few spots.
Playing emotionally drained Hank over young and hungry Georgiev (Who has played very well) is our best tank option in net.
I think giving up 1st rd picks defeats the purpose of a rebuild. It’s what got the organization in trouble in the first place. Dahlin may be a generational player and if that’s the case no one is trading down to give him up! Stay the course hopefully it pays off in the long run!
Better yet the short run!
agree. imagine being a fanbase of a team that traded down away from a mcdavid, crosby or ovi type player. the excuse being needing to stock the cupboard and gain more pieces. that GM would be lambasted and would immediately be on the hot seat. only scenario that happens is if there was collusion
cregg7
Or the GM was Sather!
I might be more willing to move the two late first round picks for a pick in the top 10-15. For example, if the Rangers ended up with picks 2-4 I could see them looking to move up if someone like a Bode Wilde were available at 10 or so.
Conversely, if Gary Bettman went all David Stern and we got the first overall pick I still might look to move up if Oliver Wahlstrom dropped to around 10 or so.
I’m with you Anthony. Unless we’re offering up a prized prospect in addition to our top pick + other first rounders, we’re not getting Dahlin unless we win the lottery. And if we wind up with a top-4 pick, I would certainly try and use our remaining picks to get to the 10-12 range. Especially is Wahlstrom or Wilde were available. And since 5 thru 12 is so heavy on dmen, you might see teams drafting for need and a guy like Dobson or Bouchard fall to the mid-teens.
Two articles on my yahoo feed, side by side:
“Brad Marchand showing leadership when it counts most for Bruins” – New England Sportsnet
“Brad Marchand in hot water again after reckless clothesline of Anthony Duclair” – Sporting News
Can’t a team in the lottery only move up like 4 spots or something? I thought I heard that last year….
Well, not at the draft but Edmonton’s GM recently traded a very close to a generational player Taylor Hall for a no name and most likely will never have a name defensemen from New Jersey.
Not so Calhob. It’s that a team can’t fall more than 4 spots. Like, if Arizona finishes dead last and has the best chance of winning the lottery, but then 3 teams behind them win spots 1, 2, and 3, Arizona would pick 4th.
Ah, can’t go back that may spots…. thanks, that makes sense
many*
I think we overuse the term “generational player.” McDavid was a generational talent. I don’t think Eichel or even Matthews is a generational talent. McDavid was the first one since Crosby/Ovechkin. Before them? You could make an argument for Joe Thornton, but to me he’s borderline…before him Lindros…then all the way back to Lemieux.
In between McDavid and Crosby there were a slew of star players that I wouldn’t consider generational talents…Kane, Stamkos, Tavares…all superstar players, but once/twice in a generation? Nah.
Dahlin is going to be a star defenseman, but generational? I don’t see it. Doesn’t make him any less attractive.
Is generational the same as franchise player? Or is it different?
I always viewed generational as a level above franchise. Like, this is a rare type of player the likes of which you won’t see for another 10 years. The math doesn’t always work…we got two in a row with Crosby/Ovechkin, and went almost 12-13 years in between Lindros and Ovie.
Also didn’t mean to call you out or anything CCCP. I’ve just been seeing the “generational” thing popping up all over the place.
Dave
You forgot to mention MalKING as a generational player. Now, that IS a generational player.
To me, he stands above Crybeetch, Ovi, and even McDavid so far.
Talkin’ ’bout my generation
3cp,
Somehow Malkin is underrated.
Malkin is borderline for me. Superstar, but a game-changing talent? He’s close.
But going into that draft, he wasn’t lauded as that type of prospect. Just like Jagr was an all-time great top-10 player in history, but was thought of as a pretty nice prospect (and drafted 6th overall) in his draft class.
To me, the generational designation is more about how the player is viewed going into the draft + how they turn out.
Callob
several years ago a team could not move up more than a few spots (maybe 4 or 5) in the lottery. i believe that it was only 1 team moving up as well.
now 3 teams can move up – that’s been going on for a very few years now. so the worst record can fall from 1 to 4 but any team in the lottery can move up to top 3 spots as said above.
MalKING is not a game changing talent? Hhmmm… I think you’re mistaking him with Ovechkin 😉
But did the arrival of Malkin change the hockey landscape in a big way? The way the arrivals of McDavid, Crosby, Ovechkin, Lindros, and Lemieux did?
Possibly. But he didn’t go into his draft being anointed a generational. So to me, he falls into the “plain ole superstar” bucket.
Dave B
5th overall for Jagr as teams above didn’t know about chances of him coming over. Thank God Pitt drafted him as Islanders had 6th pick. The Islander guy picked played 2 nhl games or 2 more than the Ranger guy played.
The Islanders also finished with 1 more point than the Pens that year.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl1990e.html
You’re right on the pick, Alex. For some reason I misremembered Scissons going 5th and Jagr going 6th. Either way, that’s a Ranger-level pick by the Isles right there.
I can’t verify the reports going into that draft, but were they saying that a player like Jaromir Jagr only comes across once in a generation?
https://www.foxsports.com/nhl/story/how-jaromir-jagr-may-have-manipulated-the-1990-nhl-draft-in-his-favor-090116
why Jagr fell to 5th
Well that’s an interesting tidbit…
Jagr being Jagr.
Matt Calamia
Verified account
@MattCalamia
#NYR morning skate has begun. Georgiev is in starters net but we’ll see when AV talks shortly.
Pavelec taking shots at the end of the morning skate.
Cool, the Athletic running a story on how awesome a GM Steve Yzerman is. Good on them, telling a story nobody else has picked up.
Every other player in the top 8 – 900+ games.
Thats definitely a good demonstration of getting into the top 8!
Malkin in position for another Ross and/or Hart this year. Since the beginning of the year he’s up 10 points on Crosby. Kucherov in 15th there, though still in the season lead by a point, has tailed off dramatically.
Although we did get the pick of the 2nd round that year in Doug Weight before swapping him for Esa “Chicken” Tikkanen
Simon
But look at the end of the 1st round that year
Crosby changed landscape of the game? If adjusting league rules every time Crosby whines means changing landscape of the game, then sure, I agree.
When healthy, MalKING is the best player in the world. Bar none.
Alex – i know!!
I don’t actually think we will have both of those picks when it comes time to choose. Gorton will be doing his everything to move up a few places. If we end up with a pick in the 8-10 range, Gorton will want to be in the top 5/6 for sure – so you use one to move up a few places to get a guy like Tkachuk or Wahlstrom – unless you think one might drop in your lap
Found a good “tank-watch” website for yous guys:
http://www.tankathon.com/nhl
I also think Malkin is better than Crosby, but only when I wear my borscht colored glasses.
Cccp. Are you sure it’s not the Russian bias speaKiNG
Lol
Crosby is crybaby. Pens gifted their “dynasty” type team with the draft rules and lockout. Getting both Mallon and Crosby not to mention Staal Fleury and letang all through a short period of multiple lottery picks.
Disgusting amount of advantage given to them to save the franchise and lemieux participation
But I will admit Crosby is generational talent and I do think he is maturing as he ages. Was way worse of a spoiled brat his first 8 years or so.
Ilb et al:
Namestoolong still has two years of RFA after this season if I’ve understood the rules correctly. This has really been his best season, part of it coming on top TB line. For that reason, I would be surprised to see him get any contract much over 3 or 3.25, still a big upgrade over his current figure. Would think top end on that might include first year as UFA on a 3yr deal, other wise around 3 or just under on a 2yr RFA contract.
Doritos on the other hand only has one year left as an RFA so you are looking at a situation where you probably will be buying one or two years of UFA. Hence my belief he is going to go closer to 5 than to 4.
Finally, please send all your snow north. They are teasing me with another 30+” forecast for this week.
Beezle – Spring Skiing in Upstate NY and VT this weekend. Keep the snow north where it can be properly enjoyed.
I simmed the lottery 29 times before we got the first pick! We got the second pick on the 9th and 24th lotteries though.
Also, the Islanders got the first pick before we did in my simming, with their pick from Calgary
SN stop cursing at me! Spring!?! ITS STILL WINTER!!!
Fine – I’ll give you Malkin!
Beezle- Namestnikov’s situation is a little complex because he signed his first contract in 2012 when he was still 19, but his ELC signing age was considered 20 because he turned 20 before December 31( his birthday is in November). Therefore he wasn’t eligible for ELC slide risk. Because of that he is completing his 6th pro season. After next season he will have 7 years under his belt and will be eligible to become an UFA even though he will only 26. They can only give him/arbitrate with him for 1 year.
Yeah, whatever. I will not get into who is better Punk b*tch or MalKING argument. I know, and you know, deep down inside, that MalKING is better.
🙂
Amazing a team with 2 ‘generational’ talents were taken out by NYR in the POs in back to back seasons.
I hope I die before I get old…
Malkin vs. Crosby is great apples vs. great oranges. Different players, both hugely productive. I prefer Malkin but that’s primarily because I have a problem with Sid’s mustache.
The numbers don’t decide, but they illustrate:
Crosby: 852 GP, 0.47535 goals/game, 1.72 assists/game, 1.66 points/game
Malkin: 772 GP, 0.47539 goals/game, 1.50 assists/game, 1.58 points/game
I wish it weren’t the case, but Sid’s numbers are marginally better (note the goals-scored margin!)
Sid the skid has extra 80 games on Zhenya. So….
If we had either of them starting in 2012, we have at least 2 Cups.
ALSO, MalKING won the cup without Sids help… AND was named a postseason MVP deservedly…unlike the Sid who was given his just because he’s Crosby.
Crosby is better than Malkin in the following categories.
Skating
Edgework
Faceoffs (considerably)
Defense
Stick handling
Passing
Vision
Hockey sense
Leadership
I’d say they’re pretty even in shooting ability. Malkin gets the edge in the sick highlight-reel goals category, but that’s about it. Malkin is awesome and I like him more than Crosby, but he’s not as good a player.
Where’s James? We need to be trash talking each other before this week’s playoff round in the Bonehead league.
You may all disagree but until Sam recnounces his infamous “This one will last a lifetime” proclamation we are probably doomed!
St Pete
whose lifetime and how old and how healthy are they
Just ordered another 40 My Pillows for the price of 39.
I was reading Corey Pronman’s Athletic article on college (and drafted) players who are set to become free agents this summer and I came across an interesting name from North Dakota.
Sioux – What say yee to Christian Wolanin. He seems to be a puck moving d-man who has improved defensively. And of course, he is a lefty shot.
Pronman’s article: https://theathletic.com/268619/2018/03/12/pronman-college-free-agents-who-could-soon-impact-the-nhl/
Alex
It has to be his just a simple deduction. And he’s still behind the mic, think about it!
Translation – “Puck Moving D Man”: =. can’t play defense.
AnthonyM- are you seriously asking Sioux’s opinion on a ND player? I can tell you his answer right now: generational talent. 🙂
But slightly less generationally talented than Danny Kristo.
Nobody is less generationally talented than Monty Kristo.
Wow Booby got jokes today 🙂
Sorry, Booby! Was stuck working all day. You suck! And I’m due to beat you lol
Have the Rangers ever picked 1st overall since the league expanded from 6 teams?
IDK, but I’d say we’re due some ridiculous luck. (Even if Dahlin’s not “generational”) Just sayin.
Kristo is a generational talent at drinking in the snow, hazing his teammates, getting frostbite, and not cracking an NHL lineup.
Sean Avery was a generational talent. He changed the rules of the game forever.
Brodeur was talented at being hated by generations of his wives’ family
James…
https://giphy.com/gifs/GWD5nSpiHxs3K
The highest the Rangers have drafted post 1967 expansion was 4th overall in 1999 when they traded up to select Pavel Brendl. The highest they have picked on their own was 6th overall – and they did it twice. In 1976 they drafted Don Murdoch and in 2004 they drafted Al Montoya.
Pre 1967, the Rangers had the 1st overall pick in 1975 and they drafted C Andre Veilleux. In those days most amateur players were sponsored so the pickings were slim. The only two of 11 drafted players that year to make the NHL were Pierre Bouchard and Michel Parizeau. The NHL also increased the minimum draft age from 16 to 18 (but you couldn’t negotiate until they were 19).
The next year they had the 2nd overall pick and drafted some guy named Brad Park. Boston took Barry Gibbs 1st overall. There were four rounds that year and all four Ranger picks played in the NHL: Joey Johnston (2nd), Don Luce (3rd) and Jack Egers (4th).
Played around with the draft simulator that UK posted earlier. It took me 21 attempts for the NYR to land the top pick. Then on attempt #22 they got the first pick again. That made me feel irrationally good about things.
Ilb thanks for the correction on Namestoodlong, didn’t realize he was 19 not 20 on the ELC. Even so, still don’t think he’s getting close to 5. 4? maybe but I don’t think I want to be the one giving him that, at least not yet.
Pavel Brendl should be example #1 of why trading up is fraught with peril. Would love to re-read the glowing scouting reports on him again.
Neil Smith picked the wrong year to build through the Draft. Brendl and Jamie Lundmark were among a long list of non-prospects that year. Patrik Stefan went 1st overall and then the Sedins went 2/3.
Tim Connolly (5th to NYI) was a good player but concussions got the better of him. You had meh type players like Taylor Pyatt, Jeff Jillson and Nick Boynton go in the first, but after the top three the best players were Barret Jackman (17th) and Martin Havlat (26th).
As bad as the Rangers were, the Islanders had four picks in the 1st: Connolly, Pyatt (8th), Branislav Mezei (1oth) and Kristian Kudroc (28th). Devils swung and missed on Ari Ahonen (27th).
Booby!
https://media.giphy.com/media/W9G8OK82R3dfO/giphy.gif
Patrik Stefan’s moment in the spotlight:
DaveB
Count me in on Monty Christo
Nice work Anthony!
Here’s hoping we get Brad Park and not Andre Villeux who never played an NHL game.
Hearing all those names really shows what a mine field it is out there.
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