Click here to read Carp’s game review of last night’s….ahem…game.
344 responses to “Rangers-5, Hurricanes-8. Game review by Carp.”
jpp
JtriPP already?
I’m pulling a Castanza and leaving on a high note.
Have a good day boneheads
jpp
Rejected by ORF
St Pete Eli
Kreider – Howden – Fast
Mika – Haze – Zook
Vesey -Chytil – Buchnevich
Spooner – Names-way-too-long – Cousin Vinnie
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Not a total rebuild, just look at the roster. 2 new players on the roster from the end of last season (howden and McQuaid). And one less young player (Anderson).
I don’t get how some ranger fans don’t understand what transpired. The letter was so smart on the organizations part from a PR perspective. Tell fans it’s going to be a rough patch as they “rebuild” the franchise and that some of their favourites may not be around for the long haul.
Brilliant, you’re now able to trade whatever player without fan backlash. Any well liked player or long term player that may be a problem behind the scenes or on the downside or with a moveable crappy contract can be sent packing without fan backlash for the better of the team in a “rebuild”.
Gorton numerous times in interviews and in the town hall since the letter has said it’s not necessarily a full rebuild. He’s used several terms for what’s going on, which brings me to the point…look at the roster.
This team is positioned to make good asset managent with its players (see stepan and moving him to avoid the nmc issue) and restock it’s sustem. Build a pipeline of players in the minors and overseas that can potentially contribute in the AHL and possibly the nhl of the next 3-5 years.
That’s smart, restocking the system where you don’t have AHL lifers as your “future”.
Most nhl teams draft and have young players working into their lineup with out “rebuilding” (look at the ducks roster this season. Just because the rangers haven’t done it for a while doesn’t mean they are doing something miraculous, they are doing what most nhl teams do every year…not full rebuilds.
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Now, on to more serious issues…
Some very astute individual said let’s wait to see what the roster looks like at the start of this season before we decide what the rangers are doing….
3 games in and it looks like they are treading water and restocking the system until next summer rolls around with one of the better potential free agency crops.
Some smart asset management will clear some cap $$$ prior to July and I’d expect a high priced free agent or two to be added and for things to really take off next season after the deck chairs are shuffled a bit.
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
The current play of this team is more of a problem with the forwards than it is the d.
The forwards are not coming back or maintaining coverage in the d zone.
Guys like shattenkirk and skjeL have not helped with several lapses in their own zone but the forwards are generally doing a very poor job.
This is why (despite the objections of James) I have been saying since the end of last season 4 or 5 of the current forwards on this team need to be gone to move this team in the right direction.
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Is belesky back yet?
SN
So does what is the difference between a total rebuild, partial rebuild and a retool? Given contracts on backline, there are no playoffs until you can rid your team of 3 really bad contracts of your top 6 D and replace them with top 4 candidates.
.
If they are in the bottom 8 team for 3 seasons as a result, is that a rebuild, retool, reshuffle?? Doesn’t matter what you call it, it is a team that went from a playoff team to a non-PO team. Boston was out of POs for 2 seasons but had 93 and 96 pts respectively so still competitive because they still had first line players.
.
PS – the ‘fans’ in NYC are already voting with their wallets. Tix being sold on Groupon for 35% discount now, more discounts to follow.
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
SN
Exactly my point. People are running around using the term full rebuild etc and it isn’t. It isn’t anything more than treading water and restocking the system at this point.
They aren’t playing any more youth than previously (they’re older now than they were at the end of the season).
It’s just the kool-aid drinkers think something is going on that isn’t.
We all get the fact that the bruins have a couple of first line players, but the way this is being done is very similar to Boston (like it or not) and that seems very odd since they are no Boston connections anywhere I’m the organization (s).
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
I’ll caution everyone again, it’s 3 games in and we don’t know for certain where this team will finish.
The first 20 or so games every season are like extended preseason so it’s not an indication of finish product.
The rangers could finish with 74 points or 93 points.
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
This team only went from a playoff team to a non playoff team due to the trades they made after the “letter”.
I don’t think they make it out of the first round last season because the coach was bad and the roster on its last leg (still is), but they (based on their record at the time right before the deadline) were in the playoff mix and would have been right down to the wire.
I also don’t think this team misses the playoffs for 3 more years. I don’t believe that is the organizations intent for one second. I think this organization wants and plans to be playoff spot competitive next season.
SN
Every NYR fan is up for the quick turnaround/retool on the fly/not a rebuild, etc etc. Depends on a lot breaking your way with a roster full of middle six offensive focused wingers and 3rd pair D-men. At least DQ is saying the right things.
.
Current Vegas Odds: New York Rangers 75 ½ wins
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Metro Division:
Washington Capitals 3/1
Pittsburgh Penguins 7/4
Columbus Blue Jackets 4/1
Philadelphia Flyers 7/2
New Jersey Devils 12/1
New York Islanders 30/1
Carolina Hurricanes 30/1
New York Rangers 80/1
BobbyO
Whiskey current play more a problem with defense…the offense has decent depth and should fine but we have mostly bottom pair defensemen and 3 or 4 specifically who are horribly slow.
Beezle
Glad for some warm temps today, now only Wickey has to burn wood tonight! And its funny how St Pete Eli is only around when they are not playing…perhaps he’s that Brooks guy?
To anyone pushing for Zuc on a line with Hayes, please no. Bad enough watching one of them skate in circles.
SN
Everybody in the pool here at #NYR practice (no specific order):
Vesey-Hayes-Spooner,
Buchnevich-Zibanejad-Fast,
Kreider-Howden-Zuccarello,
Namestnikov-Chytil-Lettieri.
Skjei-McQuaid,
Smith-Pionk,
Staal-DeAngelo,
Claesson-Shattenkirk (gulp).
.
To quote the late great Artie Johnson, “very interesting.”
Bdl
Buchnevich now a LW. That ought make the Buch fan club very happy.
Pete
Full rebuild, retool, whatever you want to call it, they need to be fighting for a high lottery pick for there to be a realistic chance in the near future to be a real contender. We don’t yet have enough of th the high end potential prospects anywhere in our system to get there yet (think top pair D, another scoring winger and a more likely than not 1st line center). Free agency next year may be a way to get such a winger (Panarin) and maybe that D (karlson), but can’t bank on any of them being available or that we could fit them both. And even if we got both we could still likely need a real 1st line center. So need to stock up on picks again this year and likely next year as well.
St Pete Eli
I was around for the Preds game Beezle. It’s hard for me to post when I’m streaming the games on my phone, and impossible when I’m watching my Grandson. So Brooksie I am not, or am I?
St Pete Eli
Looks like I nailed it with Kreidsdale and Howden? DQ got my email!
cooscoos
We’ve been for so long listening to politicians BS and double-talk us, we let our GMs do the same and we eat it. What’s happened is that in every case, we have traded or let go value for hope. Step started it because of the near arrival of his NMC and then, it was Katy Bar the Door.
cooscoos
Not only do I not relish losing a season the hope of garnering a high draft choice, I want to be competitive now and DOMINATING by Christmas.
James G
Wick what have I protested? I try to keep things in perspective is all.
it’s not that I’m against it it’s just that it’s unrealistic to expect they’re going to trade Zibanejad, Hayes, Skjei Fast and Zucc and then somehow convince another team to take Staal over the next calandar year.
Is that how you fix the roster? Sure. But this isn’t NHL ‘18. It’s the NHL.
Some people (not you in particular) and the fan base as a whole act like it’s as simple in reality as it is in their heads. “Well you just trade this guy here and that guy there they need a Dman”
You and I both knew this was going to be the kind of roster we would see. I do expect them to tread water until the trade deadline and win some games in the process. I also expect them to get another top 15 pick and to be players on the ufa front.
But 3 games in (just as you said) there’s already inpatience and skepticism and criticism and personal attacks going on here from the same voices that were betting their first born that they would stand by a rebuild.
James G
Coos unfortunately that isn’t any team’s reality. We can accept it or bitch about it for 79 more games and into next year’s camp.
Best thing to hope for is more call up and less McLeods Smiths and Zuccarellos in the mix
cooscoos
Only one on that list who is difficult to deal is Staal. The rest would draw individual interest.
Alex
Wicky
I still consider it a major rebuild starting with Raanta/Stepan for number 7 overall. Which then made the coach a goner since he is not the coach for a rebuilding team. Then the deadline deals of the captain, as well as, Miller, Grabner and Nash for essentially futures. So despite no additional moves being made after the season, that is a pretty hefty renovation with a view to the future not the present. This years number 1 should be a big part of the future.
Jpp
What was the best we could have hoped for if we stayed with the same group. What increase there has been in the cal would have gone to resigning mcd and Miller and Nash and grabner and we would have had the same team and locked into it. They had no choose but to do thks
cooscoos
Coach has hotly stated that he wants a team that sticks up for each other. The only representative here of that philosophy is McLeod and you want him jettisoned. Our kids will play tentatively and will be targeted without an ogre or two just for psychological purposes if nothing else.
cooscoos
I’d gladly have Donuts, Nash, Miller and Grabner here mixed with a few of the new kids. Gladly.
cooscoos
And we haven’t had an effective, emotional leader since No Tax.
James G
3 games in and Howden is practicing between Kreider and Zucc. Give it a few more games and Lias will be back. Give it until January and Hayes will be gone. Probably Zibanejad at the deadline.
James G
Bring those guys back and this team still goes nowhere though Coos 🙁
cooscoos
AV not the coach for a rebuilding team? What is he the coach for? Teams that need no coaching or instruction? PeeWee Herman could do that (while pulling his pud behind the bench).
cooscoos
Bring those guys back (even Step) combined with a few talented young bucks and we have a Playoff team with a shot. What in hell is wrong with that?
cooscoos
Radical changes for the sake of change and a plethora of kids who need major teaching and individual attention in-season isn’t something I want to watch (or attend) nightly. Somebody’s kidding somebody here.
Alex
Cooscoos
stanley cup finals and eastern finals pretty darn good. yeah i know,.you think you know better.
Alex
cooscoos
well you certainly don’t have to watch or attend. that’s your choice.
Thanx, Alex, for your forbearance. I dond’t have to attend? That’s a relief. ‘Preciate it.
cooscoos
Don effing Larsen?
Ty Doughme
Sounds like Shattenloser will be a healthy scratch on Thursday. Yet another brilliant big money signing the Rangers. Unreal
cooscoos
Maybe Trotz was correct in his assessment of Shatty’s lousiness.
Jpp
If there was no salary cap. Surely
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
James
I was kind of kidding. I made a statement over the summer about needed to do some forward changes (like I said 4 or 5) because if we didn’t, not a lot would change…similar spot in standings (not getting a lottery pick) and similar play on ice., and you gave an LOL like that was absurd.
If you think about it they moved 3 forwards at deadline, so it’s not like 4 or 5 over the summer is that “drastic” of a change.
So like I said, I was kind of joking earlier today with my post.
Jpp
Coos I hear you. Left brain right brain
Left brain says it’s a ruse. Right brain says well to actually do it is gonna be ugly and you won’t know for a yr or two or three what you got
Left brain says leave. Right side says it’s love stay.
Sometimes you’ll never know until you know
SN
I am all for a rebuild, but am being told its not a rebuild. Well, I am up for the retool as well. While I am at it, a reshuffle on the fly sounds grand.
Ranger Hockey – I root for the team, not the suits fuggin it up.
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Let’s be logical instead of trying to mold stuff to fit a narrative certain people spew
The raanta deal was not a rebuild move (sure they can spin it that way now after the “letter”) but that wasn’t the move at the time. Stepan wasn’t getting the #7 pick, that didn’t come in until raanta was added (according to reports after the deal).
It was a deal to get rid of a player the rangers no longer wanted with a nmc getting ready to kick in. The deal expanded and the 7 pick ended up coming our way.
That’s great, no complaint there. I like the deal.
You aren’t starting a full rebuild with that deal AND then signing shattenkirk (and to a lesser extent smith) as a free agent., especially when Beverly (as many here have stated) is a similar player. You are restocking or what ever you want to call it, not doing a go with the youth full rebuild.
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Logic…
You trade expiring contracts at the deadline and get the best players or assets you can for them.
Great, good asset management.
I posted earlier exactly why I think the letter went out, preemptive PR strike to trade a beloved ranger and captain mcdonut.
Carp stated they would have traded zucc at the deadline but getting the best return for mcdonut went to the wire. The rangers saw an opportunity to get a haul for a player with fading skills and wanting a new deal and they jumped in it.
Good asset management and I applaud it.
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Logic…
AV, like all coaches, has a shelf life and he was at his, just like torts got to his.
Yet another great PR move of the “letter”. Gorton can save face for the stupid extension he gave AV, now justification for letting him go…a “new” direction (with the same group of players lol).
AV had grown stale with the players and his lack of ability to adjust his system in game and season long, his termination was 2 years too late.
cregg7
Compared to the starting roster last october, this has been a pretty drastic beginning stages of a rebuild. Unless you have other examples of teams that have done it quicker and more obvious. They are moving who they can move bit by bit. hard to empty the yard sale in one foul swoop
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
I’m with SN and his 2:05 and I root for the team regardless.
I just get so amused by the “full rebuild” camp that thinks the rangers, doing what every other nhl team does by drafting guys as high as they can in the draft and infusing youth in their lineup (extremely important in the cap era) are doing something unique or earth shattering.
Granted, the rangers having been cup competitive from 2012-2016 moved picks to “go for it” (again, what cup competitive teams do…nothing shocking about it) so having picks in the 1st round may seem unique, but trust me it’s not, all nhl teams do what the rangers are currently doing.
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Cregg
03-04 rangers did it.
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
The rangers have a far better chance of getting elite talent in free agency next year than the draft and gorton knows it.
Alex
i like this guy
"Each game and each shift that I play, I just keep getting more confident. I just want to keep doing the best I can and just keep working hard." – #NYR Brett Howden https://t.co/5FEcJkYmSP
Cregg
Look at the roster at the start of last season, the roster right after the trade deadline, and now….
You may want to rethink that post my friend.
Alex
Wicky
but it wasn’t the same group of players. Stepan, Girardi, Raanta, McDonagh, Miller, Nash, Grabner all gone.
so with that AV’s fate was sealed as he is not the coach of a rebuilding team.
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Again, I’m fine with a youth movement and have posted lines that “I’d like to see” several times over the past few months that show that.
Things can change, you can finish just out side of the playoffs but win the lottery or get into the top few picks, but that is luck and nothing an organization does with intent.
You can get a great trade offer that you can refuse from a team desperation’s get over the cup hump. Again nothing an organization can plan for, it happens.
An organization can show good asset management though and can plan for cap hits and structure in the future.
The rangers have done pretty well with that (yandle lack of trade was a mistake and I think they learned from it). I think they learned from the shattenkirk signing as well, they didn’t sign any ufas on the high end that weren’t a significant improvement over a current organizational team. Smart move. They’ll be signing higher end free agents next summer though, and that’s smart too.
You can bet gorton and co would have been signing free agents this past summer if it was next summers group.
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Alex
Some of those guys you listed were not on the rangers roster at the beginning of last season.
The vets that were there then, after the deadline, and at the start of this season are very similar…ie it’s not a roster getting younger like you are trying to spin into a narrative.
Sorry, it just isn’t.
Moving out some older vets or contracts the organization don’t like isn’t new, a lot of nhl teams do it. It’s good asset management.
Replacing those players with vets a few years younger is not a “full rebuild” or whatever you keep trying to make it into, it’s not a “youth movement”.
As I said, av was way past his best before date (by two years), gorton knew his extension was a mistake and the “letter” was the get out of jail free card.
Tough to swallow, I know, but sometimes reality isn’t all unicorns and rainbows.
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Boy, I bet you guys are going to be so glad when I’m back at work so I don’t keep putting up war and peace length posts 😉
cregg7
I hear what you’re saying wicky. Not a lot of different names since the deadline. But names and spoon and pionk and Chytil were brought up or brought in then. So they are part of it…whatever “it” is.
My point being in 1 year time I am not seeing a change from
Desharnaid
Holland
Paul Carey
Nick Holden
rick Nash
McDonough
Miller
Grabner
Kampfer
Pavelec
So. In one short year (or long if you will) we have sent packing 10 of 25 players that made it out of camp last year. That is a roster turnover of 40%!!!
Going back just a little further we moved on from or 2a and 2 b centers (some say 1a 1b) in step and brass and girardi and Klein who were half of our top 4 and Def takes longer to really makeover.
Shatty took the role of yandle/Boyle but hasn’t filled it well yet. And he was brought in when we were still calling it a retool on the fly thinking contending could still be had with the loss of step if Zib developed even further into a 24/25 yo top line guy and skjej took the next step and smith brought his prime he showed in playoffs. That all obviously did not work so now instead of retool they pulled the lynchpin and went full rebuild on us.
BobbyO
Nash retiring…concussions suck
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
I’m sure carp will post at some point…it’s a full rebuild, and that’s what I’d expect him to say.
He’s just reporting what he is being told when he asks, not a damn thing wrong with that and that’s why I love the carpster!
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
BobbyO
Truth, they really do!
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Cregg
Good post. Nice work on the names.
I don’t see how rotating out marginal players for a bit less marginal players of similar age constitutes anything different from what any other nhl team does.
Certainly not any sort of youth movement
cregg7
I am seeing. Not not typo!
Also. I realize not all I listed may have “made it out of camp” cause there were still some cups of coffee handed out to Chytil and Dangerlo but that list of 10 I believe was here by November
40% roster turnover in 11 months is significant. U can’t just look at the April roster post deadline and say nothings different 4 months later
And we are YOUNGER! That is a fact jack. Look at the ages of even the “vets”. Guys just coming out of RFA and below. 25 years and younger
Only “old”people are Staal McQuaid and Zucc (and hank)
Shatty and Smith are tweeners age wise. Not old but not young
Didn’t agree with Gorton downgrading the coaching position, but admired the gutsiness of it–it’s his team now, no excuses, and he’ll be given two New York minutes for his plan to bear fruit, maybe three. I’ll be interested to see where AV ends up, once the heads begin to roll. Whose will be first? McLellan’s? Boucher’s? Carlyle’s?…
cregg7
Wicky. U and I agree on a lot.
So this semi disagreement is interesting convo.
You mention similar age marginal players. Spooner is 26 names is 25
Mika sneaky young at 25. Kreider is the old man now at 27 yo. Zucc is surely to be traded so not counting him as resident old guy.
A big part of the rebuild is what we don’t see. trading for number 1 and 2 picks. the young talent from Tampa, Boston and NJ. and this coming draft since we will draft earlier than if we didn’t do the rebuild. Kravtsov too since again we would have drafted later.
It’s like an iceberg. Most of that is below the surface. The rangers young talent is mostly playing elsewhere – other than msg.
Howden and Chytil are here but most of the future is not a part of the 23 man roster.
cregg7
2 years ago we were one of the oldest teams in league looking at average age. Now we are one of the youngest.
Remember it wasn’t too long ago we had Richards St. Louis dan Boyle roaming the hallways with their walkers.
Eric-8th in metro
242 regular season games left on shatty deal. Can’t end soon enough. Could never defend yet let’s pay the 6.6 per. Guy is a horror show and his offense game now sucks too.
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Cregg
5 of the guys on the list are marginal nhl players at best that were replaced by other « vets ». 4 if you talk about the back up goalie.
Grabner wasn’t coming back anyhow, neither was nash (sad) or Holden. They weren’t replaced with youth.
Chytil started the year with the rangers was replaced by a marginal nhl’er, then back and is here currently so he’s a wash.
There is one « new » young player in howden. That’s it.
You can change the names but it still isnt any sort of youth movement.
Look at the d that played last year…staal, pionk, Beverly, mcdonut, smith, shattenkirk, kampfer, holden, skjeL
This year take out kampfer, mcdonut, and holden and add Claesson and McQuaid
Not seeing significant change overall…not much of a youth movement or true change.
Talk to me again when a couple of shattenkirk, staal, and smith are gone AND they are replaced by young not nhl experienced guys.
I’m for a youth movement, we haven’t seen it yet, it’s still possible, just don’t think we’re going to see anything to the extent that many here, myself included, want to see.
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Cregg
I just don’t see the moves you talk about as “rebuild” moves, just normal logical good asset moves and ssset management.
I wonder if Kreider has any trade value left? The ship has sailed on his busting out into an all-star, but maybe there’s a GM out there who still thinks that could happen or who could use him to complement two studs. (Last three words a gift to coos.)
Hockey Sittoo
I’m not ready to throw in the Shatty towel. These are his first games back in 8 or 9 months. He’s overthinking and underplaying. He will get better as his legs and timing come around. Sitting for a game or 2 isn’t the end of the road..
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Alex
There are no icebergs, all you are posting about is simple logic that other nhl teams do all the time.
You make it sound like the rangers using 1st and 2nd round picks to draft players that are not part of the now but part of the future a few years down the road is something that only the rangers have figured out.
Every team knows this and does this. Not an earth shattering rebuild plan but something every Nhl team does.
You’re not breaking news to anyone here about it, we all know that’s how it works.
Same thing with trading older players before free agency years and getting something for them. Not a shocker, not a rebuild, asset management.
…and don’t forget that our new coach is actually, rookie too.
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Alex
We all see the trades and the picks.
Unless you are an nhl insider or work in the inner circle of the rangers, you see the same thing the rest of us do, just interpret and/or opine things differently.
I’m not trying to insult in any way shape or form and don’t want you to take it that way.
cregg7
Wicky I guess you are not wrong in your statements. Its just a different way of looking at it
6 in one half, half dozen in the other
rebuild glass half full, or half empty
not many teams have 5 first round picks in 2 years that arent rebuilding
hopefully more to come
also, getting howden as another 1st round talent was a yuge win on that trade, looking “better and better”
Alex
Wicky
But i’m adding the picks from other teams too. Many years we were missing 1st and 2nd rd picks. Last 2 drafts we had 5 number 1’s over the 2 years. I’ sure we’ll have extra picks this June as well. Already have 1 from Tamps.
Our top 10 prospects were meh to say the least. It’s looking much better now. So to me we essentially replaced guys circa 30 years old with guys 20 years old. It’s just that the 20’s are playing elsewhere by and large. For now.
Meanwhile day by day the clock tics on the most toxic contracts we have. One way or the other some of those might end early as will the worst of the Girardi buyout.
I don’t disagree on trying for the bread man or Karlsson in July. I certainly would not trade for them in Feb or March though.
I think any gm that isn’t open to trading any player (a few exceptions and maybe even them in the right deal), trying to move older players for young stud players or high draft picks to get younger stud players, trying to clear cap space to get players to improve your team, trying to get players to provide similar output at less cap hit to provide improvement in other areas, isn’t doing his job.
I guess all the teams are in constant “full rebuild” lol
SN
$81K/Game – not bad work if you can find it.
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Alex
Again, you’re not saying anything all the other teams don’t do.
I mean if Chicago has a cap issue or thinks the on ice return vs cap hit for Toews isn’t acceptable and trades Toews for the best return they can get, they not going to give back the picks they get from the other teams.
All teams use and count picks from other teams, it’s an added bonus to their original picks.
Again, nothing the rangers have invented or come up with. Happens all the time in the nhl.
cregg7
Wicky not all the teams. For the rangers and Sabres and isles to have 6 of the 31 first round picks not to mention other teams like isles and red wings and flyers and blackhawks all having multiple picks there has to be more than a handful of teams not rebuilding. 6 to 8 teams going for it with trading their firsts. 6-8 teams rebuilding with acquiring firsts. And the rest of the league standing pat seeing what their teams are morphing into. Buyers and active sellers. We were one of the few active sellers. Hence the terminology of rebuild.
And, we didn’t replace Nash and Grabs with aging vets.
Howden Chytil buch vesey Lettieri all all young. Very young! That’s 5 of 16 forwards. 31% of your forwards have 3 years or less NHL experience. What about that doesn’t say youth movement?
cregg7
I’m lost on what you’re saying to Alex
Is anyone saying the rangers are doing something others don’t. The only “inventive” thing was the letter of transparency. They aren’t reinventing the wheel on teambuilding. They are finally just going through the build from within movement rather than relying on trades and FAs
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Lettieri is an AHL level player and played some last year. Vesey and buch here last year, chytil as well.
Again from last year after the deadline, howden and McQuaid only new faces (I guess McLeod too because I think he was after deadline).
cregg7
Misprint before.
The Sabres I believe had 3 in 2017 draft. Not 18
But you get my drift. Only the rebuilding teams have multiple 1 st round picks because they are selling assets that are worth that.
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Cregg
Nash and grabs were replaced by nhl experienced players, that’s what I’m saying.
You can pick who you want that howden relaxed at forward but as of now vs after the deadline it was Anderson so they got a year older there.
Re what I’m saying to Alex.
He keeps trying to “point” things out that make this some sort of 5 year full rebuild”. Nothing he is pointing out are things that have not been done in the past by teams and do not always indicate “full rebuild”.
cregg7
That’s my point though wicky. Is you said you aren’t seeing a youth movement. I’m just pointing out that are roster is full of young guys not pushing 30
And the time between last years deadline and now is too short a variable to see roster turnover. You have to let it unfold longer.
Not much market obviosly this past summer to make many more moves past last years trade deadline. Our “move” was to sit out from signing any significant FAs this year.
cregg7
Nice discussion though. Made my day intersting.
Cheers wicky! 🍻
Will see how we look this April and compare it to last April. 😉
Rome wasn’t built in a day (or an offseason)
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Cregg
Respectfully disagree. Boston had 3, not a full rebuild, philly had multiple, not a full rebuild team (they look fairly similar to rangers).
You can use legit full rebuild teams like buffalo and Arizona if you like, but if I’m gorton I hope it’s nothing like those two teams (make the rangers dark years look like spring break).
I believe St. Louis, Anaheim, and a coulé other teams have also had multiple early round picks in the past, none of which considered « full rebuild » teams.
Again, good asset management does not equal full rebuild.
cregg7
Ps. My definition of rebuild is obviously different than yours. That’s the crux
I define it by roster turnover which combines different faces and experience levels with sprinkle of rookies.
Correct me if I’m wrong but You seem to define rebuild as needing to see non NHL experienced players with mostly rookies. Like 1 or more rookies on every line and every d Pair. That’s like extreme makeover edition.
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Cregg
I don’t believe anyone said Rome was.
That statement would seem to indicate you think o believe that.
I’m simply pointing out logical things to avoid some of the folks here being overly disappointed when things don’t quite go the way they keep talking about.
Rob
Wicky: To tell if you are in a rebuild ask this question: are the decisions we make today to maximize our chances of winning now, or some time in the future? There are some teams who are “all in” to win now, and others who are trying to maximize their chance of winning later. Not trading Yandle seems shortsighted in hindsight but it was a “win now” decision when it was made. The Rangers aren’t making any “win now” decisions right now because they are looking to the future.
I think all NHL teams with a plan are somewhere on the continuum between “win now” and “win much later.” The only think that is really up for debate I think is where the Rangers fall on that continuum (or where the front office thinks they fall). Maybe we are confusing that debate with one over the definition of the word “rebuild?”
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Roster turnover to me is a normal thing.
Depending on the « age » of your roster and other factors like cap hit etc it will ebb and flow. Might only be a guy or two or it might be 6 or 7.
I don’t think that is an abnormal thing.
Rob
In a cap league you can’t stay loaded forever when you are constantly mortgaging your future. Maybe it was bad asset management then, but I don’t think the Rangers sniff the success they had the past decade without doing it.
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Ton
I addressed that all earlier.
I agree with you re yandle and it was bad asset management.
I think the win now group is small, I think the don’t care, all about the future only, full rebuild group (if that’s the term we are still using) is small.
I think 20 plus teams including the rangers are in a group that are trying to do both. Not win it all cup this season but be as good as possible AND build for the future.
I think every team every season tries to build for long and short term (depending on pick position) through the draft with how ever many picks they have and regardless where they are from.
That’s the part that amused me greatly from some fans.
It is interesting to watch what happens with this team. Interesting, not exciting. Because two thing bother me more than anything else. All current roster including prospects are mediocre at best, if you be honest to yourself. (and some “veterans” sucks just at the different degrees). There are not any characters to be particular exited about or anticipation of sudden star rising. You can’t replace it with any kind of efforts and/or toughness, which we, BTW, are lacking too (it is necessity to add, when you have the rest, but insufficient by itself).
Another one is my fear of possible quickly developing culture of losing and, accompanying it and associated with that, collective apathy. (We know few examples). I never been a fan of changes for a sake of changes (trade everyone and let all youngsters play), so, I kind of understand coos idea of better balanced team at al. However hope dyes last. As our president like to say, when he has no answer: “Will see what happens…”
Sorry for imperfect English, if nothing else…
cooscoos
I give up. Everything I type goes to moderation. We might as well be children in Russia or in Rome with all the puerile admonitions.
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Rob
Your 4:47 is exactly what I’m talking about.
All teams in a cap era need to move (or they should) salary for picks at times to stay competitive…that’s the good asset management.
It’s not rebuilding it’s retooling/restocking while still trying to stay relevant…
Which, at this point, is exactly what the rangers are trying to do.
Rob
Thank you I think I understand your position much better now (my fault for not closely reading every comment on this post). I still don’t think the GM especially cares about 2018-2019 results. The question of whether they are rebuilding, retooling, restocking etc is something the fans will need to sort through amongst ourselves.
Rob
Lol you posted rebuilding, retooling, restocking at the same time I did
cooscoos
The reason re-building teams take years to. become good is because of lousy management and bad coaching causing the need to rebuild.. They don’t want you to know that. And you don’t.
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
4ever
Great points. And your English is better than mine ;).
It’s also why I think they are far more interested in adding their key pieces in free agency than the draft next summer (I don’t think the organization expects a lottery pick…and they shouldn’t).
I absolutely think they will try to add assets for expiring contracts (which any non cup competitive team will do) to continue to restock and gain assets.
SN
This year is as much about the trade deadline, probably more so, than last season. And I can’t wait for that too happen.
Too soon?
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
Rob
Lol, we did,
I think that letter was a stroke of genius from a PR perspective.
I think the organization would be more than pleased to “sneak” into the playoffs but if they don’t, no problem we sent out that letter saying we might not be good and players like zucc might get traded “cough cough”
Whiskey India Charlie Kilo Yankee
SN
I’m curios about the deadline too…I hope a lot of guys go, but I’m even more curious about free agency to see who makes it there and how many guys the rangers are “in on”.
Rangers Report 2.0
coos, yes, you are all children.
cooscoos
Yours?
Rangers Report 2.0
Find a different word for “toilet.” I suggest “toilet.”
Rangers Report 2.0
God, I hope not. I have enough already.
cooscoos
As long as we’re doing suggestions, I suggest you take a hike.
ilb2001
Do you guys ever work? WTB?
Rangers Report 2.0
Thanks for the suggestion. I could use the exercise.
cooscoos
I’m a writer. I work on my computer. Thanks for the interest.
ilb2001
NEW POST
cooscoos
When your ‘system’ puts a Post into moderation and you later allow that Post, why not add it as the last new comment instead of burying it hours before where it was when your ‘system’ disallowed it to begin with? Too logical?
344 responses to “Rangers-5, Hurricanes-8. Game review by Carp.”
JtriPP already?
I’m pulling a Castanza and leaving on a high note.
Have a good day boneheads
Rejected by ORF
Kreider – Howden – Fast
Mika – Haze – Zook
Vesey -Chytil – Buchnevich
Spooner – Names-way-too-long – Cousin Vinnie
Not a total rebuild, just look at the roster. 2 new players on the roster from the end of last season (howden and McQuaid). And one less young player (Anderson).
I don’t get how some ranger fans don’t understand what transpired. The letter was so smart on the organizations part from a PR perspective. Tell fans it’s going to be a rough patch as they “rebuild” the franchise and that some of their favourites may not be around for the long haul.
Brilliant, you’re now able to trade whatever player without fan backlash. Any well liked player or long term player that may be a problem behind the scenes or on the downside or with a moveable crappy contract can be sent packing without fan backlash for the better of the team in a “rebuild”.
Gorton numerous times in interviews and in the town hall since the letter has said it’s not necessarily a full rebuild. He’s used several terms for what’s going on, which brings me to the point…look at the roster.
This team is positioned to make good asset managent with its players (see stepan and moving him to avoid the nmc issue) and restock it’s sustem. Build a pipeline of players in the minors and overseas that can potentially contribute in the AHL and possibly the nhl of the next 3-5 years.
That’s smart, restocking the system where you don’t have AHL lifers as your “future”.
Most nhl teams draft and have young players working into their lineup with out “rebuilding” (look at the ducks roster this season. Just because the rangers haven’t done it for a while doesn’t mean they are doing something miraculous, they are doing what most nhl teams do every year…not full rebuilds.
Now, on to more serious issues…
Some very astute individual said let’s wait to see what the roster looks like at the start of this season before we decide what the rangers are doing….
3 games in and it looks like they are treading water and restocking the system until next summer rolls around with one of the better potential free agency crops.
Some smart asset management will clear some cap $$$ prior to July and I’d expect a high priced free agent or two to be added and for things to really take off next season after the deck chairs are shuffled a bit.
The current play of this team is more of a problem with the forwards than it is the d.
The forwards are not coming back or maintaining coverage in the d zone.
Guys like shattenkirk and skjeL have not helped with several lapses in their own zone but the forwards are generally doing a very poor job.
This is why (despite the objections of James) I have been saying since the end of last season 4 or 5 of the current forwards on this team need to be gone to move this team in the right direction.
Is belesky back yet?
So does what is the difference between a total rebuild, partial rebuild and a retool? Given contracts on backline, there are no playoffs until you can rid your team of 3 really bad contracts of your top 6 D and replace them with top 4 candidates.
.
If they are in the bottom 8 team for 3 seasons as a result, is that a rebuild, retool, reshuffle?? Doesn’t matter what you call it, it is a team that went from a playoff team to a non-PO team. Boston was out of POs for 2 seasons but had 93 and 96 pts respectively so still competitive because they still had first line players.
.
PS – the ‘fans’ in NYC are already voting with their wallets. Tix being sold on Groupon for 35% discount now, more discounts to follow.
SN
Exactly my point. People are running around using the term full rebuild etc and it isn’t. It isn’t anything more than treading water and restocking the system at this point.
They aren’t playing any more youth than previously (they’re older now than they were at the end of the season).
It’s just the kool-aid drinkers think something is going on that isn’t.
We all get the fact that the bruins have a couple of first line players, but the way this is being done is very similar to Boston (like it or not) and that seems very odd since they are no Boston connections anywhere I’m the organization (s).
I’ll caution everyone again, it’s 3 games in and we don’t know for certain where this team will finish.
The first 20 or so games every season are like extended preseason so it’s not an indication of finish product.
The rangers could finish with 74 points or 93 points.
This team only went from a playoff team to a non playoff team due to the trades they made after the “letter”.
I don’t think they make it out of the first round last season because the coach was bad and the roster on its last leg (still is), but they (based on their record at the time right before the deadline) were in the playoff mix and would have been right down to the wire.
I also don’t think this team misses the playoffs for 3 more years. I don’t believe that is the organizations intent for one second. I think this organization wants and plans to be playoff spot competitive next season.
Every NYR fan is up for the quick turnaround/retool on the fly/not a rebuild, etc etc. Depends on a lot breaking your way with a roster full of middle six offensive focused wingers and 3rd pair D-men. At least DQ is saying the right things.
.
Current Vegas Odds: New York Rangers 75 ½ wins
.
Metro Division:
Washington Capitals 3/1
Pittsburgh Penguins 7/4
Columbus Blue Jackets 4/1
Philadelphia Flyers 7/2
New Jersey Devils 12/1
New York Islanders 30/1
Carolina Hurricanes 30/1
New York Rangers 80/1
Whiskey current play more a problem with defense…the offense has decent depth and should fine but we have mostly bottom pair defensemen and 3 or 4 specifically who are horribly slow.
Glad for some warm temps today, now only Wickey has to burn wood tonight! And its funny how St Pete Eli is only around when they are not playing…perhaps he’s that Brooks guy?
To anyone pushing for Zuc on a line with Hayes, please no. Bad enough watching one of them skate in circles.
Everybody in the pool here at #NYR practice (no specific order):
Vesey-Hayes-Spooner,
Buchnevich-Zibanejad-Fast,
Kreider-Howden-Zuccarello,
Namestnikov-Chytil-Lettieri.
Skjei-McQuaid,
Smith-Pionk,
Staal-DeAngelo,
Claesson-Shattenkirk (gulp).
.
To quote the late great Artie Johnson, “very interesting.”
Buchnevich now a LW. That ought make the Buch fan club very happy.
Full rebuild, retool, whatever you want to call it, they need to be fighting for a high lottery pick for there to be a realistic chance in the near future to be a real contender. We don’t yet have enough of th the high end potential prospects anywhere in our system to get there yet (think top pair D, another scoring winger and a more likely than not 1st line center). Free agency next year may be a way to get such a winger (Panarin) and maybe that D (karlson), but can’t bank on any of them being available or that we could fit them both. And even if we got both we could still likely need a real 1st line center. So need to stock up on picks again this year and likely next year as well.
I was around for the Preds game Beezle. It’s hard for me to post when I’m streaming the games on my phone, and impossible when I’m watching my Grandson. So Brooksie I am not, or am I?
Looks like I nailed it with Kreidsdale and Howden? DQ got my email!
We’ve been for so long listening to politicians BS and double-talk us, we let our GMs do the same and we eat it. What’s happened is that in every case, we have traded or let go value for hope. Step started it because of the near arrival of his NMC and then, it was Katy Bar the Door.
Not only do I not relish losing a season the hope of garnering a high draft choice, I want to be competitive now and DOMINATING by Christmas.
Wick what have I protested? I try to keep things in perspective is all.
it’s not that I’m against it it’s just that it’s unrealistic to expect they’re going to trade Zibanejad, Hayes, Skjei Fast and Zucc and then somehow convince another team to take Staal over the next calandar year.
Is that how you fix the roster? Sure. But this isn’t NHL ‘18. It’s the NHL.
Some people (not you in particular) and the fan base as a whole act like it’s as simple in reality as it is in their heads. “Well you just trade this guy here and that guy there they need a Dman”
You and I both knew this was going to be the kind of roster we would see. I do expect them to tread water until the trade deadline and win some games in the process. I also expect them to get another top 15 pick and to be players on the ufa front.
But 3 games in (just as you said) there’s already inpatience and skepticism and criticism and personal attacks going on here from the same voices that were betting their first born that they would stand by a rebuild.
Coos unfortunately that isn’t any team’s reality. We can accept it or bitch about it for 79 more games and into next year’s camp.
Best thing to hope for is more call up and less McLeods Smiths and Zuccarellos in the mix
Only one on that list who is difficult to deal is Staal. The rest would draw individual interest.
Wicky
I still consider it a major rebuild starting with Raanta/Stepan for number 7 overall. Which then made the coach a goner since he is not the coach for a rebuilding team. Then the deadline deals of the captain, as well as, Miller, Grabner and Nash for essentially futures. So despite no additional moves being made after the season, that is a pretty hefty renovation with a view to the future not the present. This years number 1 should be a big part of the future.
What was the best we could have hoped for if we stayed with the same group. What increase there has been in the cal would have gone to resigning mcd and Miller and Nash and grabner and we would have had the same team and locked into it. They had no choose but to do thks
Coach has hotly stated that he wants a team that sticks up for each other. The only representative here of that philosophy is McLeod and you want him jettisoned. Our kids will play tentatively and will be targeted without an ogre or two just for psychological purposes if nothing else.
I’d gladly have Donuts, Nash, Miller and Grabner here mixed with a few of the new kids. Gladly.
And we haven’t had an effective, emotional leader since No Tax.
3 games in and Howden is practicing between Kreider and Zucc. Give it a few more games and Lias will be back. Give it until January and Hayes will be gone. Probably Zibanejad at the deadline.
Bring those guys back and this team still goes nowhere though Coos 🙁
AV not the coach for a rebuilding team? What is he the coach for? Teams that need no coaching or instruction? PeeWee Herman could do that (while pulling his pud behind the bench).
Bring those guys back (even Step) combined with a few talented young bucks and we have a Playoff team with a shot. What in hell is wrong with that?
Radical changes for the sake of change and a plethora of kids who need major teaching and individual attention in-season isn’t something I want to watch (or attend) nightly. Somebody’s kidding somebody here.
Cooscoos
stanley cup finals and eastern finals pretty darn good. yeah i know,.you think you know better.
cooscoos
well you certainly don’t have to watch or attend. that’s your choice.
Speak English
cool scoreboard.
Thanx, Alex, for your forbearance. I dond’t have to attend? That’s a relief. ‘Preciate it.
Don effing Larsen?
Sounds like Shattenloser will be a healthy scratch on Thursday. Yet another brilliant big money signing the Rangers. Unreal
Maybe Trotz was correct in his assessment of Shatty’s lousiness.
If there was no salary cap. Surely
James
I was kind of kidding. I made a statement over the summer about needed to do some forward changes (like I said 4 or 5) because if we didn’t, not a lot would change…similar spot in standings (not getting a lottery pick) and similar play on ice., and you gave an LOL like that was absurd.
If you think about it they moved 3 forwards at deadline, so it’s not like 4 or 5 over the summer is that “drastic” of a change.
So like I said, I was kind of joking earlier today with my post.
Coos I hear you. Left brain right brain
Left brain says it’s a ruse. Right brain says well to actually do it is gonna be ugly and you won’t know for a yr or two or three what you got
Left brain says leave. Right side says it’s love stay.
Sometimes you’ll never know until you know
I am all for a rebuild, but am being told its not a rebuild. Well, I am up for the retool as well. While I am at it, a reshuffle on the fly sounds grand.
Ranger Hockey – I root for the team, not the suits fuggin it up.
Let’s be logical instead of trying to mold stuff to fit a narrative certain people spew
The raanta deal was not a rebuild move (sure they can spin it that way now after the “letter”) but that wasn’t the move at the time. Stepan wasn’t getting the #7 pick, that didn’t come in until raanta was added (according to reports after the deal).
It was a deal to get rid of a player the rangers no longer wanted with a nmc getting ready to kick in. The deal expanded and the 7 pick ended up coming our way.
That’s great, no complaint there. I like the deal.
You aren’t starting a full rebuild with that deal AND then signing shattenkirk (and to a lesser extent smith) as a free agent., especially when Beverly (as many here have stated) is a similar player. You are restocking or what ever you want to call it, not doing a go with the youth full rebuild.
Logic…
You trade expiring contracts at the deadline and get the best players or assets you can for them.
Great, good asset management.
I posted earlier exactly why I think the letter went out, preemptive PR strike to trade a beloved ranger and captain mcdonut.
Carp stated they would have traded zucc at the deadline but getting the best return for mcdonut went to the wire. The rangers saw an opportunity to get a haul for a player with fading skills and wanting a new deal and they jumped in it.
Good asset management and I applaud it.
Logic…
AV, like all coaches, has a shelf life and he was at his, just like torts got to his.
Yet another great PR move of the “letter”. Gorton can save face for the stupid extension he gave AV, now justification for letting him go…a “new” direction (with the same group of players lol).
AV had grown stale with the players and his lack of ability to adjust his system in game and season long, his termination was 2 years too late.
Compared to the starting roster last october, this has been a pretty drastic beginning stages of a rebuild. Unless you have other examples of teams that have done it quicker and more obvious. They are moving who they can move bit by bit. hard to empty the yard sale in one foul swoop
I’m with SN and his 2:05 and I root for the team regardless.
I just get so amused by the “full rebuild” camp that thinks the rangers, doing what every other nhl team does by drafting guys as high as they can in the draft and infusing youth in their lineup (extremely important in the cap era) are doing something unique or earth shattering.
Granted, the rangers having been cup competitive from 2012-2016 moved picks to “go for it” (again, what cup competitive teams do…nothing shocking about it) so having picks in the 1st round may seem unique, but trust me it’s not, all nhl teams do what the rangers are currently doing.
Cregg
03-04 rangers did it.
The rangers have a far better chance of getting elite talent in free agency next year than the draft and gorton knows it.
i like this guy
Cregg
Look at the roster at the start of last season, the roster right after the trade deadline, and now….
You may want to rethink that post my friend.
Wicky
but it wasn’t the same group of players. Stepan, Girardi, Raanta, McDonagh, Miller, Nash, Grabner all gone.
so with that AV’s fate was sealed as he is not the coach of a rebuilding team.
Again, I’m fine with a youth movement and have posted lines that “I’d like to see” several times over the past few months that show that.
Things can change, you can finish just out side of the playoffs but win the lottery or get into the top few picks, but that is luck and nothing an organization does with intent.
You can get a great trade offer that you can refuse from a team desperation’s get over the cup hump. Again nothing an organization can plan for, it happens.
An organization can show good asset management though and can plan for cap hits and structure in the future.
The rangers have done pretty well with that (yandle lack of trade was a mistake and I think they learned from it). I think they learned from the shattenkirk signing as well, they didn’t sign any ufas on the high end that weren’t a significant improvement over a current organizational team. Smart move. They’ll be signing higher end free agents next summer though, and that’s smart too.
You can bet gorton and co would have been signing free agents this past summer if it was next summers group.
Alex
Some of those guys you listed were not on the rangers roster at the beginning of last season.
The vets that were there then, after the deadline, and at the start of this season are very similar…ie it’s not a roster getting younger like you are trying to spin into a narrative.
Sorry, it just isn’t.
Moving out some older vets or contracts the organization don’t like isn’t new, a lot of nhl teams do it. It’s good asset management.
Replacing those players with vets a few years younger is not a “full rebuild” or whatever you keep trying to make it into, it’s not a “youth movement”.
As I said, av was way past his best before date (by two years), gorton knew his extension was a mistake and the “letter” was the get out of jail free card.
Tough to swallow, I know, but sometimes reality isn’t all unicorns and rainbows.
Boy, I bet you guys are going to be so glad when I’m back at work so I don’t keep putting up war and peace length posts 😉
I hear what you’re saying wicky. Not a lot of different names since the deadline. But names and spoon and pionk and Chytil were brought up or brought in then. So they are part of it…whatever “it” is.
My point being in 1 year time I am not seeing a change from
Desharnaid
Holland
Paul Carey
Nick Holden
rick Nash
McDonough
Miller
Grabner
Kampfer
Pavelec
So. In one short year (or long if you will) we have sent packing 10 of 25 players that made it out of camp last year. That is a roster turnover of 40%!!!
Going back just a little further we moved on from or 2a and 2 b centers (some say 1a 1b) in step and brass and girardi and Klein who were half of our top 4 and Def takes longer to really makeover.
Shatty took the role of yandle/Boyle but hasn’t filled it well yet. And he was brought in when we were still calling it a retool on the fly thinking contending could still be had with the loss of step if Zib developed even further into a 24/25 yo top line guy and skjej took the next step and smith brought his prime he showed in playoffs. That all obviously did not work so now instead of retool they pulled the lynchpin and went full rebuild on us.
Nash retiring…concussions suck
I’m sure carp will post at some point…it’s a full rebuild, and that’s what I’d expect him to say.
He’s just reporting what he is being told when he asks, not a damn thing wrong with that and that’s why I love the carpster!
BobbyO
Truth, they really do!
Cregg
Good post. Nice work on the names.
I don’t see how rotating out marginal players for a bit less marginal players of similar age constitutes anything different from what any other nhl team does.
Certainly not any sort of youth movement
I am seeing. Not not typo!
Also. I realize not all I listed may have “made it out of camp” cause there were still some cups of coffee handed out to Chytil and Dangerlo but that list of 10 I believe was here by November
40% roster turnover in 11 months is significant. U can’t just look at the April roster post deadline and say nothings different 4 months later
And we are YOUNGER! That is a fact jack. Look at the ages of even the “vets”. Guys just coming out of RFA and below. 25 years and younger
Only “old”people are Staal McQuaid and Zucc (and hank)
Shatty and Smith are tweeners age wise. Not old but not young
Didn’t agree with Gorton downgrading the coaching position, but admired the gutsiness of it–it’s his team now, no excuses, and he’ll be given two New York minutes for his plan to bear fruit, maybe three. I’ll be interested to see where AV ends up, once the heads begin to roll. Whose will be first? McLellan’s? Boucher’s? Carlyle’s?…
Wicky. U and I agree on a lot.
So this semi disagreement is interesting convo.
You mention similar age marginal players. Spooner is 26 names is 25
Mika sneaky young at 25. Kreider is the old man now at 27 yo. Zucc is surely to be traded so not counting him as resident old guy.
Grabner 31
Desharnais 32
Holden 31
Nash 34
Carey 30
Mcd 29
Wicky
A big part of the rebuild is what we don’t see. trading for number 1 and 2 picks. the young talent from Tampa, Boston and NJ. and this coming draft since we will draft earlier than if we didn’t do the rebuild. Kravtsov too since again we would have drafted later.
It’s like an iceberg. Most of that is below the surface. The rangers young talent is mostly playing elsewhere – other than msg.
Howden and Chytil are here but most of the future is not a part of the 23 man roster.
2 years ago we were one of the oldest teams in league looking at average age. Now we are one of the youngest.
Remember it wasn’t too long ago we had Richards St. Louis dan Boyle roaming the hallways with their walkers.
242 regular season games left on shatty deal. Can’t end soon enough. Could never defend yet let’s pay the 6.6 per. Guy is a horror show and his offense game now sucks too.
Cregg
5 of the guys on the list are marginal nhl players at best that were replaced by other « vets ». 4 if you talk about the back up goalie.
Grabner wasn’t coming back anyhow, neither was nash (sad) or Holden. They weren’t replaced with youth.
Chytil started the year with the rangers was replaced by a marginal nhl’er, then back and is here currently so he’s a wash.
There is one « new » young player in howden. That’s it.
You can change the names but it still isnt any sort of youth movement.
Look at the d that played last year…staal, pionk, Beverly, mcdonut, smith, shattenkirk, kampfer, holden, skjeL
This year take out kampfer, mcdonut, and holden and add Claesson and McQuaid
Not seeing significant change overall…not much of a youth movement or true change.
Talk to me again when a couple of shattenkirk, staal, and smith are gone AND they are replaced by young not nhl experienced guys.
I’m for a youth movement, we haven’t seen it yet, it’s still possible, just don’t think we’re going to see anything to the extent that many here, myself included, want to see.
Cregg
I just don’t see the moves you talk about as “rebuild” moves, just normal logical good asset moves and ssset management.
I wonder if Kreider has any trade value left? The ship has sailed on his busting out into an all-star, but maybe there’s a GM out there who still thinks that could happen or who could use him to complement two studs. (Last three words a gift to coos.)
I’m not ready to throw in the Shatty towel. These are his first games back in 8 or 9 months. He’s overthinking and underplaying. He will get better as his legs and timing come around. Sitting for a game or 2 isn’t the end of the road..
Alex
There are no icebergs, all you are posting about is simple logic that other nhl teams do all the time.
You make it sound like the rangers using 1st and 2nd round picks to draft players that are not part of the now but part of the future a few years down the road is something that only the rangers have figured out.
Every team knows this and does this. Not an earth shattering rebuild plan but something every Nhl team does.
You’re not breaking news to anyone here about it, we all know that’s how it works.
Same thing with trading older players before free agency years and getting something for them. Not a shocker, not a rebuild, asset management.
301. Patience, please.
…and don’t forget that our new coach is actually, rookie too.
Alex
We all see the trades and the picks.
Unless you are an nhl insider or work in the inner circle of the rangers, you see the same thing the rest of us do, just interpret and/or opine things differently.
I’m not trying to insult in any way shape or form and don’t want you to take it that way.
Wicky I guess you are not wrong in your statements. Its just a different way of looking at it
6 in one half, half dozen in the other
rebuild glass half full, or half empty
not many teams have 5 first round picks in 2 years that arent rebuilding
hopefully more to come
also, getting howden as another 1st round talent was a yuge win on that trade, looking “better and better”
Wicky
But i’m adding the picks from other teams too. Many years we were missing 1st and 2nd rd picks. Last 2 drafts we had 5 number 1’s over the 2 years. I’ sure we’ll have extra picks this June as well. Already have 1 from Tamps.
Our top 10 prospects were meh to say the least. It’s looking much better now. So to me we essentially replaced guys circa 30 years old with guys 20 years old. It’s just that the 20’s are playing elsewhere by and large. For now.
Meanwhile day by day the clock tics on the most toxic contracts we have. One way or the other some of those might end early as will the worst of the Girardi buyout.
I don’t disagree on trying for the bread man or Karlsson in July. I certainly would not trade for them in Feb or March though.
Shatty pruc’d
I think any gm that isn’t open to trading any player (a few exceptions and maybe even them in the right deal), trying to move older players for young stud players or high draft picks to get younger stud players, trying to clear cap space to get players to improve your team, trying to get players to provide similar output at less cap hit to provide improvement in other areas, isn’t doing his job.
I guess all the teams are in constant “full rebuild” lol
$81K/Game – not bad work if you can find it.
Alex
Again, you’re not saying anything all the other teams don’t do.
I mean if Chicago has a cap issue or thinks the on ice return vs cap hit for Toews isn’t acceptable and trades Toews for the best return they can get, they not going to give back the picks they get from the other teams.
All teams use and count picks from other teams, it’s an added bonus to their original picks.
Again, nothing the rangers have invented or come up with. Happens all the time in the nhl.
Wicky not all the teams. For the rangers and Sabres and isles to have 6 of the 31 first round picks not to mention other teams like isles and red wings and flyers and blackhawks all having multiple picks there has to be more than a handful of teams not rebuilding. 6 to 8 teams going for it with trading their firsts. 6-8 teams rebuilding with acquiring firsts. And the rest of the league standing pat seeing what their teams are morphing into. Buyers and active sellers. We were one of the few active sellers. Hence the terminology of rebuild.
And, we didn’t replace Nash and Grabs with aging vets.
Howden Chytil buch vesey Lettieri all all young. Very young! That’s 5 of 16 forwards. 31% of your forwards have 3 years or less NHL experience. What about that doesn’t say youth movement?
I’m lost on what you’re saying to Alex
Is anyone saying the rangers are doing something others don’t. The only “inventive” thing was the letter of transparency. They aren’t reinventing the wheel on teambuilding. They are finally just going through the build from within movement rather than relying on trades and FAs
Lettieri is an AHL level player and played some last year. Vesey and buch here last year, chytil as well.
Again from last year after the deadline, howden and McQuaid only new faces (I guess McLeod too because I think he was after deadline).
Misprint before.
The Sabres I believe had 3 in 2017 draft. Not 18
But you get my drift. Only the rebuilding teams have multiple 1 st round picks because they are selling assets that are worth that.
Cregg
Nash and grabs were replaced by nhl experienced players, that’s what I’m saying.
You can pick who you want that howden relaxed at forward but as of now vs after the deadline it was Anderson so they got a year older there.
Re what I’m saying to Alex.
He keeps trying to “point” things out that make this some sort of 5 year full rebuild”. Nothing he is pointing out are things that have not been done in the past by teams and do not always indicate “full rebuild”.
That’s my point though wicky. Is you said you aren’t seeing a youth movement. I’m just pointing out that are roster is full of young guys not pushing 30
And the time between last years deadline and now is too short a variable to see roster turnover. You have to let it unfold longer.
Not much market obviosly this past summer to make many more moves past last years trade deadline. Our “move” was to sit out from signing any significant FAs this year.
Nice discussion though. Made my day intersting.
Cheers wicky! 🍻
Will see how we look this April and compare it to last April. 😉
Rome wasn’t built in a day (or an offseason)
Cregg
Respectfully disagree. Boston had 3, not a full rebuild, philly had multiple, not a full rebuild team (they look fairly similar to rangers).
You can use legit full rebuild teams like buffalo and Arizona if you like, but if I’m gorton I hope it’s nothing like those two teams (make the rangers dark years look like spring break).
I believe St. Louis, Anaheim, and a coulé other teams have also had multiple early round picks in the past, none of which considered « full rebuild » teams.
Again, good asset management does not equal full rebuild.
Ps. My definition of rebuild is obviously different than yours. That’s the crux
I define it by roster turnover which combines different faces and experience levels with sprinkle of rookies.
Correct me if I’m wrong but You seem to define rebuild as needing to see non NHL experienced players with mostly rookies. Like 1 or more rookies on every line and every d Pair. That’s like extreme makeover edition.
Cregg
I don’t believe anyone said Rome was.
That statement would seem to indicate you think o believe that.
I’m simply pointing out logical things to avoid some of the folks here being overly disappointed when things don’t quite go the way they keep talking about.
Wicky: To tell if you are in a rebuild ask this question: are the decisions we make today to maximize our chances of winning now, or some time in the future? There are some teams who are “all in” to win now, and others who are trying to maximize their chance of winning later. Not trading Yandle seems shortsighted in hindsight but it was a “win now” decision when it was made. The Rangers aren’t making any “win now” decisions right now because they are looking to the future.
I think all NHL teams with a plan are somewhere on the continuum between “win now” and “win much later.” The only think that is really up for debate I think is where the Rangers fall on that continuum (or where the front office thinks they fall). Maybe we are confusing that debate with one over the definition of the word “rebuild?”
Roster turnover to me is a normal thing.
Depending on the « age » of your roster and other factors like cap hit etc it will ebb and flow. Might only be a guy or two or it might be 6 or 7.
I don’t think that is an abnormal thing.
In a cap league you can’t stay loaded forever when you are constantly mortgaging your future. Maybe it was bad asset management then, but I don’t think the Rangers sniff the success they had the past decade without doing it.
Ton
I addressed that all earlier.
I agree with you re yandle and it was bad asset management.
I think the win now group is small, I think the don’t care, all about the future only, full rebuild group (if that’s the term we are still using) is small.
I think 20 plus teams including the rangers are in a group that are trying to do both. Not win it all cup this season but be as good as possible AND build for the future.
I think every team every season tries to build for long and short term (depending on pick position) through the draft with how ever many picks they have and regardless where they are from.
That’s the part that amused me greatly from some fans.
Ton=Rob
Ugg
It is interesting to watch what happens with this team. Interesting, not exciting. Because two thing bother me more than anything else. All current roster including prospects are mediocre at best, if you be honest to yourself. (and some “veterans” sucks just at the different degrees). There are not any characters to be particular exited about or anticipation of sudden star rising. You can’t replace it with any kind of efforts and/or toughness, which we, BTW, are lacking too (it is necessity to add, when you have the rest, but insufficient by itself).
Another one is my fear of possible quickly developing culture of losing and, accompanying it and associated with that, collective apathy. (We know few examples). I never been a fan of changes for a sake of changes (trade everyone and let all youngsters play), so, I kind of understand coos idea of better balanced team at al. However hope dyes last. As our president like to say, when he has no answer: “Will see what happens…”
Sorry for imperfect English, if nothing else…
I give up. Everything I type goes to moderation. We might as well be children in Russia or in Rome with all the puerile admonitions.
Rob
Your 4:47 is exactly what I’m talking about.
All teams in a cap era need to move (or they should) salary for picks at times to stay competitive…that’s the good asset management.
It’s not rebuilding it’s retooling/restocking while still trying to stay relevant…
Which, at this point, is exactly what the rangers are trying to do.
Thank you I think I understand your position much better now (my fault for not closely reading every comment on this post). I still don’t think the GM especially cares about 2018-2019 results. The question of whether they are rebuilding, retooling, restocking etc is something the fans will need to sort through amongst ourselves.
Lol you posted rebuilding, retooling, restocking at the same time I did
The reason re-building teams take years to. become good is because of lousy management and bad coaching causing the need to rebuild.. They don’t want you to know that. And you don’t.
4ever
Great points. And your English is better than mine ;).
It’s also why I think they are far more interested in adding their key pieces in free agency than the draft next summer (I don’t think the organization expects a lottery pick…and they shouldn’t).
I absolutely think they will try to add assets for expiring contracts (which any non cup competitive team will do) to continue to restock and gain assets.
This year is as much about the trade deadline, probably more so, than last season. And I can’t wait for that too happen.
Too soon?
Rob
Lol, we did,
I think that letter was a stroke of genius from a PR perspective.
I think the organization would be more than pleased to “sneak” into the playoffs but if they don’t, no problem we sent out that letter saying we might not be good and players like zucc might get traded “cough cough”
SN
I’m curios about the deadline too…I hope a lot of guys go, but I’m even more curious about free agency to see who makes it there and how many guys the rangers are “in on”.
coos, yes, you are all children.
Yours?
Find a different word for “toilet.” I suggest “toilet.”
God, I hope not. I have enough already.
As long as we’re doing suggestions, I suggest you take a hike.
Do you guys ever work? WTB?
Thanks for the suggestion. I could use the exercise.
I’m a writer. I work on my computer. Thanks for the interest.
NEW POST
When your ‘system’ puts a Post into moderation and you later allow that Post, why not add it as the last new comment instead of burying it hours before where it was when your ‘system’ disallowed it to begin with? Too logical?