Hank spent yesterday on a boat in Miami throwing up gang signs. What, me worry?
SN
Hockey Sitoo
SN, why would any athlete, especially one as elite as Hank, take multi-million dollar hometown discounts?
_____
Hockey Sitoo; you say others would have paid as much? Funny how there are NO other teams paying their goalie that much, including ones who have, you know, won cups.
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In a hard cap era, if the players want to win, then they need to be flexible in how they hamstring the team cap.
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If he gets injured, he gets paid anyway, so not sure where that is going.
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Henk also gets the benefit of getting Shampoo Boy endorsements. Haven’t seen any Tampa Bay goalie with national endorsement deals.
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I would never begrudge anyone from taking as much as they can, but if you are the highest paid player on your team and the highest paid player at your position (by 18% when is was signed), you much play like it ALL the time. I am not a big believer in using the past to pay for the future.
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I look to Tom Brady, who took less to stay and win championships in a sport with a hard cap; now he has 4 of them
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Henk is a very good goalie now, but no goalie, no matter how good should take up that much of the cap.
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I hope for the teams’ sake he performs like the highest paid player at his position. Last year, he did. This year at age 34, not so much; only 4.5 seasons left on the deal
CCCP
Screw Hank.
Let’s talk about Butch the Kid…he’s had at least a point in all three games since coming back. Me liky!
Hockey Sittoo
SN there are no other teams right now paying their goalies that much but there will be soon enough. Hank was the first to get there because he was the best at his position for a long time, the face and bedrock of the franchise. My point about the injury issue is not that they don’t get paid the rest of their contracts, but there will not be another contract to come if they are injured. How Lundqvist making money off commercials factors into the cap issue is beyond me. He’s a good looking charismatic guy so yup he gets endorsements. I don’t disagree with your argument that you don’t think goalies should be the highest paid player in the team. You might be right. My response is just that the best player on the team is typically the highest paid and there is no serious argument to be made that Lundqvist was not the best player on the team when he signed his contract.
My initial question though in the other thread is not so much about the cap, but rather why doesn’t Hank get any of the benefit of the doubt that Price is getting while going through a very similar struggle? Are you saying it’s just because he is paid more and therefore should be subject to more scorn and derision? Genuinely curious…
Rangers Report 2.0
SN, name a comparable UFA goaltender that has signed a contract under the current CBA and then you’ll know why none are paid as much.
Rangers Report 2.0
Carey price goes UFA after next year. See if he doesn’t get more than Lundqvist.
Rooting for Hank, hoping he can do it, but if he can’t – cold, cruel world. It is what it is when it is.
Bdl
You are right CCCP,
Buchnevich is going to be something special. Skill, hockey sense, vision, he’s got the whole package. Only question on him is health.
CCCP
And when it is what it is it is what it is.
Norm Merton
It’s not that difficult, is it, really, to understand the schadenfreude re. Lundqvist? With very few exceptions, the criticism boils down to his wealth and good looks, and it’s only human to envy that and to project the silly notion that “if I had that kind of money, I’d make sure I stopped every puck or died trying.” How dare he slump, it is morally unacceptable, the money I’m paying him with my ticket purchase. We all feel a little of that, I bet. Where I get annoyed is when folks push past that and simply make stuff up to ascribe bad motives to a person they don’t know–thus the throwing teammates under the bus, the arrogant stare-down, a face he makes while on the bench… isn’t it enough to moan about his poor performance or suggest putting in the backup?
Hockey Sittoo
Rangers Report Price will definitely get more than Hank and he has not been nearly as consistent as Hank for such an extended period of time. Price in his first 5 seasons was .912/2.58. Hank was .918/2.3. Price in his next 3 years .921/2.58 (I didn’t count the years he was injured). Hank in his next 5 years was .924/2.2. No one is going to convince me Hank didn’t deserve his contract or that he isn’t the most consistently elite goalie of the last decade. And that’s without even mentioning that he is the only guy in NHL history to record 30 wins in his first 11 seasons and it would have been in 10 except for the lockout.
Hockey Sittoo
Too true Norm. I guess I should have thought of that when I posited the question.
ilb2001
Do you think Hank would get more than $8.5M if he signed with another team but NY?
wicky229
I don’t care if hank looks like Shrek, too much $$$$ for any goalie is too much $$$ for any goalie.
Price, Bishop, Holtby All going to get similar contracts soon. At the time Lundqvist signed that deal he was the franchise. If you want to talk about players who should have taken less to remain with the team to compete let’s talk about Stepan, Girardi and Staal. None of which are truly worth their contracts in a hard cap era. Cut each of their salaries to around 3 million and they could have actually had a defense worth a damn.
Hockey Sittoo
Just heard the guys on Hockey Central talking about Hank and Price. They are ascribing the slumps to the condensed schedule and lack of practice time with their goalie coaches. Also saying the schedule is why we are seeing such high scoring games. Interesting take.
Not many would take a home-town discount, especially when the owner and president/GM are willing to go to the max. The situation was a perfect storm, Lundqvist the best goalie in the league at the time he became a UFA, and the Rangers at the peak of their “window” and were, despite what some say in retrospect, legit contenders. It would have been foolish for them to not sign him and keep him from UFA. And if he had taken a discount to say, $7M per, really what does that extra $1.5M get them? Tanner Glass.
I agree 100 percent the contract is too big, especially with the way he’s playing now, and it will get worse and worse as it goes on. But they had to do it.
And keeping Talbot instead was not an option. That’s revisionist.
Wick, I know you’ve been on board with the ‘you don’t pay the goalie this much’ since the ink dried on that contract. Fact of the matter is, at that point you could have argued he was the best goalie in the world. If a goalie was going to get paid it was him. If anyone in the organization was going to get paid it was him. That’s what happens with star players regardless of position. But I know where you’re coming from. My issue with all of these contracts is really term as opposed to amounts. Regardless, what’s done is done. As I said- there’s a nice list of players that are part of the issues now that really are much more guilty of not giving the organization a ‘discount’
wicky229
2 “above avg” players have taken a discount to play for rangers..mcdonut and brass.
ilb2001
Carp summarized it well.
I think he took a fair deal for that time. Also, remember, his maximum contract length in NY could’ve been 8 years, elsewhere only 7. He signed what they felt was a fair deal, what he would’ve gotten elsewhere, 7 yr at $8.5M. You can call a home discount if you want.
Resign Hunwick as Clendening’s replacement in summer if TO let’s him walk. btw 1 year 2 mill?
Norm Merton
I keep waiting for ilb, resident contracts guru, to chime in on the notion that contract balance is achievable. I don’t study it nearly to the extent he does–I don’t have the patience–but is there a team out there that pays each player what he is worth? That sounds rhetorical, but I really am ignorant–for all I know, that team exists. The Rangers are overpaying their goalie, underpaying other younger players, and have put together a contender, so how bad is it really?
Price will be 30 when he resigns. Someone will pay him more than Hank is getting and probably similar years. It will probably be a bad business decision. What would the reaction be like in Montreal if they let him walk and give Al Montoya the #1 spot? They fell apart when he got hurt last year. GMs have to have some onions to make these kind of calls. The easy way out is to pay him now and hope for the best later when someone else may have the job anyway.
“above average” wasn’t exactly the classification of Lundqvist at the time, Wick. Maybe in your eyes but not in the eyes of a lot of others including those with the check book. He was one of if not the best in the world. There’s teams that were going to pay him that still don’t have a goalie to this day. Just because Chicago won some cups with all star talent on the blue line/up front and not in goal doesn’t mean the Rangers would have even sniffed a spot in the finals without him since that deal.
Know why Montreal won’t let him walk? Because not too long ago their number one guy was Halak, Huet, Theodore and Thibault.
The Rangers had average goalies in the past- Dunham, Weekes, Cloutier, Blackburn. All those lovely guys in the post Richter era are what people should recall when they’re screaming bloody murder because our Franchise goalie is showing signs of being on the decline after 12 years, 427 wins, 22,742 saves and 68 shutouts in the regular season and post season combined. ‘but what have you done for me lately’, right? trade him!
Ok, Brassard took a home team discount and still wasn’t worth his contract so that’s a moot point.
wicky229
Carp
Agree re “some”, certainly not now. Mcdonut could have went trouba route etc but took (agreed to) money that is what I would consider “discounted”. Obviously just my opinion and you know a lot more about the ins and outs than me 😉
I give Talbot credit, he’s showing this year that with a team in front of him, he is a legit starting goalie. With that said, he’s got a long way to go before the revisionists have their day on that topic.
Wick, disagreeing with you doesn’t mean I claim to know more than you. Or anybody.
Also doesn’t mean I like you all of a sudden 🙂
wicky229
James
Respectfully disagree re your 12:31. Hard cap era has shown needing top skaters and D men is more important than top goalie imo. You can’t have a sieve back there and I understand that. But having, a top 10-12 goalie and putting $$$ else where seems to be a far more successful formula in the post 2004 NHL
Norm Merton
Everybody hates Wicky 😉
wicky229
Here come the “what player upgrades are you going to make with the saved $$$” posts. You guys are smart enough and probably have more time to look it up than I do so….go for it.
17.7 million dollars of cap tied up among Stepan, Staal and Girardi. Throw in the 7.8 million for Nash who although he’s been effective this year when healthy has not been worth his contract aside from one regular season (perhaps during the post season last year had it lasted more than 5 games). Those 4 guys are a lot more responsible financially for the fact that there hasn’t been another Stanley Cup during this era. And for a great deal of the woes this team is faced with now. I’m pretty sure that if that 25+ million was allocated in smarter ways at this point, this team could have gone all the way by now while paying our above average goalie 8.5 a year.
wicky229
No one…least of all me, is saying talbot is as good or better than hank. I’m saying $$$$ for $$$$, performance for performance, in a hard cap league talbot (as an example) is a better VALUE than hank (or price or some other goalie making 6 mil + per).
wicky229
And brasssrd was a good value considering the points he put up. Better value than stepan.
wicky229
Re step and brass…talking about with rangers, no idea brassard stats this year
Again, People act like Chicago is so smart because they’ve won with Crawford. Well, in Chicago 21 million buys you Kane and Toews. In NY 25 million buys you the four guys I mentioned above. And here’s another fun fact. Staal and Girardi combined contracts are only about 600k less than the combined salaries of Seabrook and Keith.
But paying Lundqvist was the mistake….
wicky229
Did I say hank was above avg?
E3
Norm – are you saying that Hank hadn’t been giving his mates the evil eye death stare?? I know you’re the resident contrarian but……
Now, I do realize that you know more about everything than everybody but feel free to review the goals scored on Hank prior to their most recent game. Lots and lots of stare downs.
I await your snarky response….
wicky229
What is crawfords salary? Quick? Flower? Detroit goalie on their cup team? Thomas with bruins?
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I get it some of you are upset because hank hasn’t delivered yet…me too. His contract was a mistake, hindsight 20/20
wicky229
James
I really think you have misread something (or maybe I incorrectly posted something saying hank was above avg). I have kind stated throughout his career hank has been top 3 goalie in the league…which is why I say you DO NOT need a top 3 goalie u. This league to win the cup.
Brassard has 8-13-21 this year and only 4pp points. Stepan is 12-24-36 with 10 pp points this year. Agree Brassard WAS the better value and may even still be if playing in NY. Then again he could have been another really big wart on this Rangers squad this season.
Zibanejad btw, who has only played 20 games and has 7 goals 17 points and 5 pp points.
And just to mention since a lot of fans around the league are clamoring for Duchene by the deadline and he has 3 more goals and 9 less points than Stepan for virtually the same money so make of it all what you will. (Duchene in NY with this team would probably have 20+ goals and 40+ points by now IMHO)
Granted you may not need a top 3 goalie in the league, but if most GMs have one they’re sure as heck going to try their best to keep them around. It’s not all meant to be directed at you Wick. Like I said, I just think that if they (sather) were going to give him that deal they should have been smarter about how they allocated other money and term.
Also, brother man- My thing about Talbot had nothing to do with you at all. I was just saying he’s having a good season.
SN
While Nash has not performed to his regular season production in POs, he has been the best all around player on NYR since he has signed (and that includes Shampoo Boy)
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The idea you sign your best player to the most money no matter what is a new one. No accounting for position, age, current roster, talent in minors, etc etc.
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Henk earned a mega-deal, no doubt, with his performance on the ice; it is up to Management to understand how to properly configure a hockey team to compete for a Cup each year and compensate appropriately. Wonder if the same arguments will be so prevalent in last 3 seasons of the deal.
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Sire Father!
I apologize across the board here, because I’m reading back comments after posting but Wicky- We always agree to disagree on certain topics so no worries 🙂 It’s Carp that hates you, not me!
You’ve got a point re: top skaters and dmen but I guess that’s what I’m saying in a way. Girardi and Staal are not Keith and Seabrook. Stepan is not Toews. Nash is not Kane. Maybe there’s some serendipity at play or maybe it’s just a curse that seems like a blessing, but this organization just happens to have their only superstar between the pipes whereas others are blessed with the Crosby’s Mcdavid’s and Kane’s of the world..
SN, great point, my only problem with what you wrote is within the sentence “Nash has been the best all around player on the Rangers”..He has been. But the best all around players on other teams such as Pittsburgh and Washington have been better by leaps and bounds. And that’s what’s made the biggest difference, at least to me.
All I had was a Bic lighter and a roll of Scott 1000 sheet single ply but I managed to surround the Embassy and start a conflagration for the ages. I flew out of (cannot say where) and was back in Nome in time to find an Eskimo woman and proceed with unsanctioned conjugal relations.
Cross Check Charlie
I think that when Hank was signed people in the NHL figured that the cap would increase by quite a bit and by the time his contract is in his 5th year or later it will be a bargain. I don’t have any stats to back me up, but I don’t think the cap has gone up significantly in the last four years.
Just as an example: When Hank is at his peak at a cap of (for example) $60M his $8M salary is justified because he was the best in the world. If they projected the cap to be about $100M by his 5th year an $8M salary is then a bargain.
So, the problem is that the cap hasn’t gone up as expected and Hank’s cap hit is still a large percentage of the total cap.
Yeah, man… I keep my fingers crossed for for the kid (Butch) to stay healthy. I really miss having Russian players on our team. Especially good ones.
E3
Cccp – Rush in?
Hockey Sittoo
SN look at the work done by Nick Mercadente and others regarding GSAA etc. Lundqvist outperforms everyone by a wide margin. But stats can be sliced and diced by anyone, me included, to fit a narrative. My larger point with the comparison of Hank and Price was just to say that at the time he signed his contract he was worth it and when the time comes for Price to sign his big contract he will be worth it too.
I don’t pay much attention to line combos and pairings, but I am reading elsewhere that Skjei and Clendening are paired tonight? A) Has that pairing been put out much? B) If it is happening, will they be looking at 10 minutes each?
If it’s workable, it would make sense to me. Both have been struggling mightily and could use some focused, short shifts to work on the basics.
SN
I like that pairing, hopefully put with a top 6 line; best defense is a very good offense type deal
I think some of us might be reading “body language” — my favorite — when Lundqvist looks at his D-men (who weren’t playing D) … when in fact we have no idea what he’s saying. Probably begging them, again to let him see the shot, or to tie up the guy who just had an uncontested deflection or rebound, or to stay on their feet instead of snow-angeling. Or he could be giving them the hairy eyeball, the malocchio. … Or he could be telling them about his conditioner.
Catching up on the two discussions.
Your goalie shouldn’t be your highest paid player, and Stepan is a better all around player than Brassard.
wicky229
SN
Re your 1:37…thanks.
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As an example then, when I’m talking about value in a hard cap era, I’ll take talbot and his salary vs hank and his twice as much salary. Talbot is the better value (using SN stats as an example) imo.
wicky229
Bdl
If he is, it isn’t by much and as I was just pointing out the on ice difference isn’t $1.5 mil per worthy.
remember that closing scene from Taxi when Alex Reger’s dog died and he was bawling in a quiet room while clutching the leash?
That’s how I feel about Hank right now
wicky229
I guess my other point/opinion would coincide with what some others have touched in…our best skaters aren’t elite, they more first pair/first line but not what I’d call “elite”. Or maybe our best forward and d man are never better (overall) than other teams best forward and d man?
Bdl
The Stepan vs Brassard argument always made me uncomfortable. I was as big a Brassard fan as I am a Stepan fan. But because of that I always felt I could view it a little clearer. I have always felt that Stepan is the better player. Brassard the more natural scorer and skater, but Stepan better in everything else.
wicky229
Carp
Where do you think our top d man (mcdonut) and forward (nash) rank amongst their peers? Top 30 and 50 respectively?
Brassard wins in the best value contest. With that said if he were putting up this year’s numbers in a blueshirt people would be having nervous break downs of Eric size proportions. I think the important thing here is that we won that trade even with Zibanejad missing the last two months of hockey. Stepan is atleast putting up some points and could still be tradable in the right situation.
wicky229
Bdl
I agree to an extent. I think stepan is overrated defencively but underrated a bit offencively. Brass was better on draws, more physical (not saying much, believe me I know), brass was also a better skater. Id give step the edge on hockey IQ. In the end, seem like pretty equal players to me each having areas of the game they are better at, but again step not anywhere close to 1.5 mil per better. To me brassard is better cap era value, but obviously moot point now.
E3
I’m a body language expert. Been fluent since I was 7. I speak, write, and read body language. And when I read Hank’s body language, his evil eye death stare frightens me. That said, those icy steel blue sapphires gleam in the moonlight and he’s still the prettiest goalie in the league.
SN
Bros-hard just misses the limelight. He is a big game player. Do that trade again in a heart beat.
Also would trade Step in a similar deal if available.
BDL, my biggest issues with Step have been as follows- Putrid faceoffs, streakiness and foot speed. He’s a very good player despite all of it. I could probably live with his cap hit if it weren’t for the first two things I listed. I criticized him today solely on the topic of guys that weren’t doing the team any favors when it came to their long term deals. Granted every middle of the pack guy and their grandmas are getting 6×6 these days. He didn’t have to be one of them.
wicky229
And fwiw, I thought the zpack deal was a no brainer because despite injury, he is better value than brass this season. Smart trade, get better value and draft pick out of the deal. Only way that deal was better if it was step instead of brass (from a value standpoint)
E3
Big Game Brass – “I’m Big Game Brass (“BGB”). Say my name!!
E3
Stepan isn’t slow. It’s just everyone else on the league is faster.
Honestly Wick, even if Step had gone for Zibanejad I would have still wanted Brassard gone. I know that rubs some people the wrong way but I honestly thought that despite his skill and all the clutch “big game brass” moments that he gave us, he was too much of a defensive liability and it would rub off on his linemates quite often (Zucc anyone?)
The same Otto who played in Alaska for the Sara Palin Dromes?
Bdl
Age is a factor when comparing Stepan, and Brassard as far as cap hit goes. Brassards O numbers are down this year, but I think that the system he is stuck playing in has a lot todo with that.
BDL, All I know is I’m excited for the next 5-7 years of Zibanejad.
Norm Merton
The Rangers got Brass’ two best seasons out of him, kept the younger, more productive center, and traded for an even younger, better center in Zibanejad. Well done, Gorton, though hardly rocket science. And Brass got to home in the bargain!
Wicky, in regards to the Rangers ever having the best forward/Dman I think it’s fair to say they haven’t had it consistently in a long time. There’s been games and playoff series’ where the Rangers may have had both but that’s about the extent of it. The fact of the matter is that for a while teams like Chicago, Pittsburgh, LA, Washington and San Jose were really bad for more than a season or two. The Rangers were too. And they got close in the “fire sale” season but lost out on the Crosby sweepstakes. Literally luck of the draw..That plus some bad draft picks kept them from having what those other teams have.
Joe: “Boy Sam, McDonagh’s shot is so lethal, he’s one of the more underrated defensemen in the league when it comes to scoring ability with that shot from the point. He’s just got to hit the net with it!”
E3
JoeM – “saw him in the shower, really big tight thighs”
Sam – “shoots and scores”
JoeM – “even with the towel on I could peek and see really big thighs”
Pidto – “JoeM, want to hide in the bushes tonight with me?”
E3
Who’s in goal for the NYR tonight? The rookie or the sieve?
‘Tin dmen and AV’s chompin’
Hanka Hanka’s on his own
This summer I hear Vegas laughin’
Not draftin’ these a-holes
Gotta get down to it
Top 4 are cutting us down
Should have been gone long ago!
wicky229
James
I think you are giving zucc too much credit defencively. He was every bit as bad as brassard last season and isn’t much better this season. I know is blasphemy here to say anything negative about zucc and his sideshow bob routine, he just isn’t very good defencively imo. Gifted offencively without a doubt.
Wick, “defensive liability and it would rub off on his linemates quite often (Zucc anyone?)” was implying that Zucc was and still IS a defensive nightmare lol. The two of them on a line together was rough to watch when neither felt like playing D.
And I for one wouldn’t mind if he wound up elsewhere in the right deal
Hockey Sittoo
Just saw Carey Price slap
down a reporter who asked about his weak blocker side. Made me laugh at the contrast between how he responds to questions and Hank’s soul baring, angst-filled, anguished answers. Buck up King and LGR!
142 responses to “Game day. Clean slate, grab it.”
Red light Lundqvist.
This is fine.
Hank spent yesterday on a boat in Miami throwing up gang signs. What, me worry?
Hockey Sitoo
SN, why would any athlete, especially one as elite as Hank, take multi-million dollar hometown discounts?
_____
Hockey Sitoo; you say others would have paid as much? Funny how there are NO other teams paying their goalie that much, including ones who have, you know, won cups.
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In a hard cap era, if the players want to win, then they need to be flexible in how they hamstring the team cap.
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If he gets injured, he gets paid anyway, so not sure where that is going.
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Henk also gets the benefit of getting Shampoo Boy endorsements. Haven’t seen any Tampa Bay goalie with national endorsement deals.
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I would never begrudge anyone from taking as much as they can, but if you are the highest paid player on your team and the highest paid player at your position (by 18% when is was signed), you much play like it ALL the time. I am not a big believer in using the past to pay for the future.
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I look to Tom Brady, who took less to stay and win championships in a sport with a hard cap; now he has 4 of them
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Henk is a very good goalie now, but no goalie, no matter how good should take up that much of the cap.
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I hope for the teams’ sake he performs like the highest paid player at his position. Last year, he did. This year at age 34, not so much; only 4.5 seasons left on the deal
Screw Hank.
Let’s talk about Butch the Kid…he’s had at least a point in all three games since coming back. Me liky!
SN there are no other teams right now paying their goalies that much but there will be soon enough. Hank was the first to get there because he was the best at his position for a long time, the face and bedrock of the franchise. My point about the injury issue is not that they don’t get paid the rest of their contracts, but there will not be another contract to come if they are injured. How Lundqvist making money off commercials factors into the cap issue is beyond me. He’s a good looking charismatic guy so yup he gets endorsements. I don’t disagree with your argument that you don’t think goalies should be the highest paid player in the team. You might be right. My response is just that the best player on the team is typically the highest paid and there is no serious argument to be made that Lundqvist was not the best player on the team when he signed his contract.
My initial question though in the other thread is not so much about the cap, but rather why doesn’t Hank get any of the benefit of the doubt that Price is getting while going through a very similar struggle? Are you saying it’s just because he is paid more and therefore should be subject to more scorn and derision? Genuinely curious…
SN, name a comparable UFA goaltender that has signed a contract under the current CBA and then you’ll know why none are paid as much.
Carey price goes UFA after next year. See if he doesn’t get more than Lundqvist.
Rooting for Hank, hoping he can do it, but if he can’t – cold, cruel world. It is what it is when it is.
You are right CCCP,
Buchnevich is going to be something special. Skill, hockey sense, vision, he’s got the whole package. Only question on him is health.
And when it is what it is it is what it is.
It’s not that difficult, is it, really, to understand the schadenfreude re. Lundqvist? With very few exceptions, the criticism boils down to his wealth and good looks, and it’s only human to envy that and to project the silly notion that “if I had that kind of money, I’d make sure I stopped every puck or died trying.” How dare he slump, it is morally unacceptable, the money I’m paying him with my ticket purchase. We all feel a little of that, I bet. Where I get annoyed is when folks push past that and simply make stuff up to ascribe bad motives to a person they don’t know–thus the throwing teammates under the bus, the arrogant stare-down, a face he makes while on the bench… isn’t it enough to moan about his poor performance or suggest putting in the backup?
Rangers Report Price will definitely get more than Hank and he has not been nearly as consistent as Hank for such an extended period of time. Price in his first 5 seasons was .912/2.58. Hank was .918/2.3. Price in his next 3 years .921/2.58 (I didn’t count the years he was injured). Hank in his next 5 years was .924/2.2. No one is going to convince me Hank didn’t deserve his contract or that he isn’t the most consistently elite goalie of the last decade. And that’s without even mentioning that he is the only guy in NHL history to record 30 wins in his first 11 seasons and it would have been in 10 except for the lockout.
Too true Norm. I guess I should have thought of that when I posited the question.
Do you think Hank would get more than $8.5M if he signed with another team but NY?
I don’t care if hank looks like Shrek, too much $$$$ for any goalie is too much $$$ for any goalie.
Price, Bishop, Holtby All going to get similar contracts soon. At the time Lundqvist signed that deal he was the franchise. If you want to talk about players who should have taken less to remain with the team to compete let’s talk about Stepan, Girardi and Staal. None of which are truly worth their contracts in a hard cap era. Cut each of their salaries to around 3 million and they could have actually had a defense worth a damn.
Just heard the guys on Hockey Central talking about Hank and Price. They are ascribing the slumps to the condensed schedule and lack of practice time with their goalie coaches. Also saying the schedule is why we are seeing such high scoring games. Interesting take.
Sittoo, I think your question was answered 🙂
Not many would take a home-town discount, especially when the owner and president/GM are willing to go to the max. The situation was a perfect storm, Lundqvist the best goalie in the league at the time he became a UFA, and the Rangers at the peak of their “window” and were, despite what some say in retrospect, legit contenders. It would have been foolish for them to not sign him and keep him from UFA. And if he had taken a discount to say, $7M per, really what does that extra $1.5M get them? Tanner Glass.
I agree 100 percent the contract is too big, especially with the way he’s playing now, and it will get worse and worse as it goes on. But they had to do it.
And keeping Talbot instead was not an option. That’s revisionist.
also, if they let him walk you guys would have gone berserk, and especially after each of their next four playoff eliminations.
BTW, you pay your best player the most money. He was far and away their best player. Simple as that. Position is inconsequential.
Thanks Carp! Appreciate the insight on the perfect storm.
System hank played in during some of his time here was much “tighter” than mtl system price has played in.
Key word: Some.
Wick, I know you’ve been on board with the ‘you don’t pay the goalie this much’ since the ink dried on that contract. Fact of the matter is, at that point you could have argued he was the best goalie in the world. If a goalie was going to get paid it was him. If anyone in the organization was going to get paid it was him. That’s what happens with star players regardless of position. But I know where you’re coming from. My issue with all of these contracts is really term as opposed to amounts. Regardless, what’s done is done. As I said- there’s a nice list of players that are part of the issues now that really are much more guilty of not giving the organization a ‘discount’
2 “above avg” players have taken a discount to play for rangers..mcdonut and brass.
Carp summarized it well.
I think he took a fair deal for that time. Also, remember, his maximum contract length in NY could’ve been 8 years, elsewhere only 7. He signed what they felt was a fair deal, what he would’ve gotten elsewhere, 7 yr at $8.5M. You can call a home discount if you want.
Resign Hunwick as Clendening’s replacement in summer if TO let’s him walk. btw 1 year 2 mill?
I keep waiting for ilb, resident contracts guru, to chime in on the notion that contract balance is achievable. I don’t study it nearly to the extent he does–I don’t have the patience–but is there a team out there that pays each player what he is worth? That sounds rhetorical, but I really am ignorant–for all I know, that team exists. The Rangers are overpaying their goalie, underpaying other younger players, and have put together a contender, so how bad is it really?
Price will be 30 when he resigns. Someone will pay him more than Hank is getting and probably similar years. It will probably be a bad business decision. What would the reaction be like in Montreal if they let him walk and give Al Montoya the #1 spot? They fell apart when he got hurt last year. GMs have to have some onions to make these kind of calls. The easy way out is to pay him now and hope for the best later when someone else may have the job anyway.
“above average” wasn’t exactly the classification of Lundqvist at the time, Wick. Maybe in your eyes but not in the eyes of a lot of others including those with the check book. He was one of if not the best in the world. There’s teams that were going to pay him that still don’t have a goalie to this day. Just because Chicago won some cups with all star talent on the blue line/up front and not in goal doesn’t mean the Rangers would have even sniffed a spot in the finals without him since that deal.
Brassard and McDonagh took home-town discounts? Really? I must have missed those.
(Didn’t see your post, ilb, until after I posted.)
If McDonagh was a UFA instead of an RFA at the time he would have gotten Suter money.
Know why Montreal won’t let him walk? Because not too long ago their number one guy was Halak, Huet, Theodore and Thibault.
The Rangers had average goalies in the past- Dunham, Weekes, Cloutier, Blackburn. All those lovely guys in the post Richter era are what people should recall when they’re screaming bloody murder because our Franchise goalie is showing signs of being on the decline after 12 years, 427 wins, 22,742 saves and 68 shutouts in the regular season and post season combined. ‘but what have you done for me lately’, right? trade him!
Ok, Brassard took a home team discount and still wasn’t worth his contract so that’s a moot point.
Carp
Agree re “some”, certainly not now. Mcdonut could have went trouba route etc but took (agreed to) money that is what I would consider “discounted”. Obviously just my opinion and you know a lot more about the ins and outs than me 😉
I give Talbot credit, he’s showing this year that with a team in front of him, he is a legit starting goalie. With that said, he’s got a long way to go before the revisionists have their day on that topic.
Wick, disagreeing with you doesn’t mean I claim to know more than you. Or anybody.
Also doesn’t mean I like you all of a sudden 🙂
James
Respectfully disagree re your 12:31. Hard cap era has shown needing top skaters and D men is more important than top goalie imo. You can’t have a sieve back there and I understand that. But having, a top 10-12 goalie and putting $$$ else where seems to be a far more successful formula in the post 2004 NHL
Everybody hates Wicky 😉
Here come the “what player upgrades are you going to make with the saved $$$” posts. You guys are smart enough and probably have more time to look it up than I do so….go for it.
17.7 million dollars of cap tied up among Stepan, Staal and Girardi. Throw in the 7.8 million for Nash who although he’s been effective this year when healthy has not been worth his contract aside from one regular season (perhaps during the post season last year had it lasted more than 5 games). Those 4 guys are a lot more responsible financially for the fact that there hasn’t been another Stanley Cup during this era. And for a great deal of the woes this team is faced with now. I’m pretty sure that if that 25+ million was allocated in smarter ways at this point, this team could have gone all the way by now while paying our above average goalie 8.5 a year.
No one…least of all me, is saying talbot is as good or better than hank. I’m saying $$$$ for $$$$, performance for performance, in a hard cap league talbot (as an example) is a better VALUE than hank (or price or some other goalie making 6 mil + per).
And brasssrd was a good value considering the points he put up. Better value than stepan.
Re step and brass…talking about with rangers, no idea brassard stats this year
Again, People act like Chicago is so smart because they’ve won with Crawford. Well, in Chicago 21 million buys you Kane and Toews. In NY 25 million buys you the four guys I mentioned above. And here’s another fun fact. Staal and Girardi combined contracts are only about 600k less than the combined salaries of Seabrook and Keith.
But paying Lundqvist was the mistake….
Did I say hank was above avg?
Norm – are you saying that Hank hadn’t been giving his mates the evil eye death stare?? I know you’re the resident contrarian but……
Now, I do realize that you know more about everything than everybody but feel free to review the goals scored on Hank prior to their most recent game. Lots and lots of stare downs.
I await your snarky response….
What is crawfords salary? Quick? Flower? Detroit goalie on their cup team? Thomas with bruins?
–
I get it some of you are upset because hank hasn’t delivered yet…me too. His contract was a mistake, hindsight 20/20
James
I really think you have misread something (or maybe I incorrectly posted something saying hank was above avg). I have kind stated throughout his career hank has been top 3 goalie in the league…which is why I say you DO NOT need a top 3 goalie u. This league to win the cup.
Brassard has 8-13-21 this year and only 4pp points. Stepan is 12-24-36 with 10 pp points this year. Agree Brassard WAS the better value and may even still be if playing in NY. Then again he could have been another really big wart on this Rangers squad this season.
Zibanejad btw, who has only played 20 games and has 7 goals 17 points and 5 pp points.
And just to mention since a lot of fans around the league are clamoring for Duchene by the deadline and he has 3 more goals and 9 less points than Stepan for virtually the same money so make of it all what you will. (Duchene in NY with this team would probably have 20+ goals and 40+ points by now IMHO)
E3, I read your post.
Granted you may not need a top 3 goalie in the league, but if most GMs have one they’re sure as heck going to try their best to keep them around. It’s not all meant to be directed at you Wick. Like I said, I just think that if they (sather) were going to give him that deal they should have been smarter about how they allocated other money and term.
Also, brother man- My thing about Talbot had nothing to do with you at all. I was just saying he’s having a good season.
While Nash has not performed to his regular season production in POs, he has been the best all around player on NYR since he has signed (and that includes Shampoo Boy)
.
The idea you sign your best player to the most money no matter what is a new one. No accounting for position, age, current roster, talent in minors, etc etc.
.
Henk earned a mega-deal, no doubt, with his performance on the ice; it is up to Management to understand how to properly configure a hockey team to compete for a Cup each year and compensate appropriately. Wonder if the same arguments will be so prevalent in last 3 seasons of the deal.
.
Sire Father!
I apologize across the board here, because I’m reading back comments after posting but Wicky- We always agree to disagree on certain topics so no worries 🙂 It’s Carp that hates you, not me!
You’ve got a point re: top skaters and dmen but I guess that’s what I’m saying in a way. Girardi and Staal are not Keith and Seabrook. Stepan is not Toews. Nash is not Kane. Maybe there’s some serendipity at play or maybe it’s just a curse that seems like a blessing, but this organization just happens to have their only superstar between the pipes whereas others are blessed with the Crosby’s Mcdavid’s and Kane’s of the world..
SN, great point, my only problem with what you wrote is within the sentence “Nash has been the best all around player on the Rangers”..He has been. But the best all around players on other teams such as Pittsburgh and Washington have been better by leaps and bounds. And that’s what’s made the biggest difference, at least to me.
Wire Hicky
No idea if Hank is giving his D the evil eye, but I wouldn’t criticize him if he did.
Kooz – similarly, the D can’t be blamed for giving Hank the evil eye on occasion.
Nash made an error signing here. If he stayed healthy in a smaller market, he could be HOF caliber.
Roger, E3, Roger.
Over
Last 4 seasons:
Goals/60 last 4 years 5v5 min 4000 TOI
1 – Quick
2 – Price
3 – Holtby
4 – Schneider
5 – Elliott
18 – Lundquist
20 -Talbot
.
Save % last 4 years 5v5 min 5000 TOI
1 – Price
2 – Holtby
3 – Rask
4 – Crawford
5 – Dubnyk
11 – Lundquist
14 – Talbot
.
CSv%/60 5v5 min. 5000 TOI
1 – Price
2 – Dubnyk
3 – Holtby
4 – Rask
5 – Jones
6 – Lundquist
14 – Talbot
All I had was a Bic lighter and a roll of Scott 1000 sheet single ply but I managed to surround the Embassy and start a conflagration for the ages. I flew out of (cannot say where) and was back in Nome in time to find an Eskimo woman and proceed with unsanctioned conjugal relations.
I think that when Hank was signed people in the NHL figured that the cap would increase by quite a bit and by the time his contract is in his 5th year or later it will be a bargain. I don’t have any stats to back me up, but I don’t think the cap has gone up significantly in the last four years.
Just as an example: When Hank is at his peak at a cap of (for example) $60M his $8M salary is justified because he was the best in the world. If they projected the cap to be about $100M by his 5th year an $8M salary is then a bargain.
So, the problem is that the cap hasn’t gone up as expected and Hank’s cap hit is still a large percentage of the total cap.
…..or maybe I’m wrong
Goals/Attempts/Weather/Price of RB sangwich/coke
1. Stuvenivich – 422/1188/68/$21.25
2. Wortenburger – 412/1264/70/$22.50
3. Schitzenstein – 401/1301/69/$18.65
4. Crappola – 396/1046/71/$19.45
Bdl
Yeah, man… I keep my fingers crossed for for the kid (Butch) to stay healthy. I really miss having Russian players on our team. Especially good ones.
Cccp – Rush in?
SN look at the work done by Nick Mercadente and others regarding GSAA etc. Lundqvist outperforms everyone by a wide margin. But stats can be sliced and diced by anyone, me included, to fit a narrative. My larger point with the comparison of Hank and Price was just to say that at the time he signed his contract he was worth it and when the time comes for Price to sign his big contract he will be worth it too.
Rush in! Rush out!
In my yute, around attractive women, I had Roman hands and Russian fingers.
Is it too late to jump on “I hate Wicky” bandwagon?
Is a bandwagon a jackwagon with music?
I don’t pay much attention to line combos and pairings, but I am reading elsewhere that Skjei and Clendening are paired tonight? A) Has that pairing been put out much? B) If it is happening, will they be looking at 10 minutes each?
If it’s workable, it would make sense to me. Both have been struggling mightily and could use some focused, short shifts to work on the basics.
I like that pairing, hopefully put with a top 6 line; best defense is a very good offense type deal
I think some of us might be reading “body language” — my favorite — when Lundqvist looks at his D-men (who weren’t playing D) … when in fact we have no idea what he’s saying. Probably begging them, again to let him see the shot, or to tie up the guy who just had an uncontested deflection or rebound, or to stay on their feet instead of snow-angeling. Or he could be giving them the hairy eyeball, the malocchio. … Or he could be telling them about his conditioner.
He could be reminding them how awesome Mattingly was:
http://m.mlb.com/video/v2685722/1995-alds-gm-2-mattingly-homers-in-the-postseason/?query=mattingly%2Balds
No more GIFs please
http://i.giphy.com/BAJ7JKJKAYzzq.gif
Catching up on the two discussions.
Your goalie shouldn’t be your highest paid player, and Stepan is a better all around player than Brassard.
SN
Re your 1:37…thanks.
–
As an example then, when I’m talking about value in a hard cap era, I’ll take talbot and his salary vs hank and his twice as much salary. Talbot is the better value (using SN stats as an example) imo.
Bdl
If he is, it isn’t by much and as I was just pointing out the on ice difference isn’t $1.5 mil per worthy.
IMO
Cccp
Never too late for that
remember that closing scene from Taxi when Alex Reger’s dog died and he was bawling in a quiet room while clutching the leash?
That’s how I feel about Hank right now
I guess my other point/opinion would coincide with what some others have touched in…our best skaters aren’t elite, they more first pair/first line but not what I’d call “elite”. Or maybe our best forward and d man are never better (overall) than other teams best forward and d man?
The Stepan vs Brassard argument always made me uncomfortable. I was as big a Brassard fan as I am a Stepan fan. But because of that I always felt I could view it a little clearer. I have always felt that Stepan is the better player. Brassard the more natural scorer and skater, but Stepan better in everything else.
Carp
Where do you think our top d man (mcdonut) and forward (nash) rank amongst their peers? Top 30 and 50 respectively?
Brassard wins in the best value contest. With that said if he were putting up this year’s numbers in a blueshirt people would be having nervous break downs of Eric size proportions. I think the important thing here is that we won that trade even with Zibanejad missing the last two months of hockey. Stepan is atleast putting up some points and could still be tradable in the right situation.
Bdl
I agree to an extent. I think stepan is overrated defencively but underrated a bit offencively. Brass was better on draws, more physical (not saying much, believe me I know), brass was also a better skater. Id give step the edge on hockey IQ. In the end, seem like pretty equal players to me each having areas of the game they are better at, but again step not anywhere close to 1.5 mil per better. To me brassard is better cap era value, but obviously moot point now.
I’m a body language expert. Been fluent since I was 7. I speak, write, and read body language. And when I read Hank’s body language, his evil eye death stare frightens me. That said, those icy steel blue sapphires gleam in the moonlight and he’s still the prettiest goalie in the league.
Bros-hard just misses the limelight. He is a big game player. Do that trade again in a heart beat.
Also would trade Step in a similar deal if available.
BDL, my biggest issues with Step have been as follows- Putrid faceoffs, streakiness and foot speed. He’s a very good player despite all of it. I could probably live with his cap hit if it weren’t for the first two things I listed. I criticized him today solely on the topic of guys that weren’t doing the team any favors when it came to their long term deals. Granted every middle of the pack guy and their grandmas are getting 6×6 these days. He didn’t have to be one of them.
And fwiw, I thought the zpack deal was a no brainer because despite injury, he is better value than brass this season. Smart trade, get better value and draft pick out of the deal. Only way that deal was better if it was step instead of brass (from a value standpoint)
Big Game Brass – “I’m Big Game Brass (“BGB”). Say my name!!
Stepan isn’t slow. It’s just everyone else on the league is faster.
You’re welcome, Toronto!
http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/18494354/nhl-secret-weapon-toronto-maple-leafs-star-auston-matthews-skating-prowess-ukrainian-instructor-moved-mexico
In the league ^^^
Torts vs LeBron
………….
John Tortorella wants LeBron James on the ice, but says there’s “not a chance” he could play.
http://i66.tinypic.com/2d1649u.png
If he skated backwards, he would be Norbel SemaJ.
Honestly Wick, even if Step had gone for Zibanejad I would have still wanted Brassard gone. I know that rubs some people the wrong way but I honestly thought that despite his skill and all the clutch “big game brass” moments that he gave us, he was too much of a defensive liability and it would rub off on his linemates quite often (Zucc anyone?)
That’s why Joel Otto was so good at skating backwards, Coos. He would just zip around a rink at practice going “otto! otto! otto!”
If Staal were to move to Helsinki and almost skate backwards, he would still Finnish Laast.
Ah Joel Otto. Do you guys remember this one?
The same Otto who played in Alaska for the Sara Palin Dromes?
Age is a factor when comparing Stepan, and Brassard as far as cap hit goes. Brassards O numbers are down this year, but I think that the system he is stuck playing in has a lot todo with that.
We cannot truly judge Brass against Step until we get a better picture of Brass’s Mom.
That Calgary’s farm team?
BDL, All I know is I’m excited for the next 5-7 years of Zibanejad.
The Rangers got Brass’ two best seasons out of him, kept the younger, more productive center, and traded for an even younger, better center in Zibanejad. Well done, Gorton, though hardly rocket science. And Brass got to home in the bargain!
Wicky, in regards to the Rangers ever having the best forward/Dman I think it’s fair to say they haven’t had it consistently in a long time. There’s been games and playoff series’ where the Rangers may have had both but that’s about the extent of it. The fact of the matter is that for a while teams like Chicago, Pittsburgh, LA, Washington and San Jose were really bad for more than a season or two. The Rangers were too. And they got close in the “fire sale” season but lost out on the Crosby sweepstakes. Literally luck of the draw..That plus some bad draft picks kept them from having what those other teams have.
CLAAAAAAAANK! Sam: “McDonagh’s big blast from the point goes wide.”
Joe: “Boy Sam, McDonagh’s shot is so lethal, he’s one of the more underrated defensemen in the league when it comes to scoring ability with that shot from the point. He’s just got to hit the net with it!”
JoeM – “saw him in the shower, really big tight thighs”
Sam – “shoots and scores”
JoeM – “even with the towel on I could peek and see really big thighs”
Pidto – “JoeM, want to hide in the bushes tonight with me?”
Who’s in goal for the NYR tonight? The rookie or the sieve?
Norm
Lol
E3 – Lundqvist is in goal. I believe AV announced it yesterday.
Thx Anthony
‘Tin dmen and AV’s chompin’
Hanka Hanka’s on his own
This summer I hear Vegas laughin’
Not draftin’ these a-holes
Gotta get down to it
Top 4 are cutting us down
Should have been gone long ago!
James
I think you are giving zucc too much credit defencively. He was every bit as bad as brassard last season and isn’t much better this season. I know is blasphemy here to say anything negative about zucc and his sideshow bob routine, he just isn’t very good defencively imo. Gifted offencively without a doubt.
Tabula Rasa. Prendilo!!
Wick, “defensive liability and it would rub off on his linemates quite often (Zucc anyone?)” was implying that Zucc was and still IS a defensive nightmare lol. The two of them on a line together was rough to watch when neither felt like playing D.
And I for one wouldn’t mind if he wound up elsewhere in the right deal
Just saw Carey Price slap
down a reporter who asked about his weak blocker side. Made me laugh at the contrast between how he responds to questions and Hank’s soul baring, angst-filled, anguished answers. Buck up King and LGR!
Hey, have you guys seen the commercial with Tiki Barber running a barber shop?
The guy who calls signals at the beginning goes, “Hambone! Sally!”
Holy freakin crap. They stole that from us.
I miss that kid.
Compare Stepan and Brassard. I’ll say this: Neither has done enough in his career. Brassard has done less with more.
Tiki, the poster boy for how to blow it all. Should have a ring, HOF at Giants Stadium, revered. Ends up, he and his big mouth are persona non-grata.
Who in hell is next on this Trump Show, Roy Rogers, Hopalong Cassidy, and Gene Autry?
So…are we expecting another “uncontested” contest?
Anyone know the brand of conditioner used by Shampoo Boy?
James
My bad, I read it wrong. Apologies
‘Kick Suave and a Beauty’ conditioner.
Speaking of commercials, those Vikings dodge truck commercials are a riot.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ed2hwJIvT0
Good evening all! My evening sked lately has me snakebit…won’t make game but will be here in spirit!!! LGR! COME ON HANK!!!
Did we lose yet?
Mama!
E3 – just saw that Sharks ad with Thornton and Burns in the barber shop- classic
MHGA
Hey coos!
Should be a high scoring game for the Leafs!